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Using Fresh-Ground Whole Wheat Flour (and some highlights from our book tour)
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by Jeff, November 11, 2009
Filed Under Special techniques, bread questions | 170 Comments
The flour on the left (the browner, coarser one) is an organic fresh-ground whole wheat. On the right, the commercial whole wheat flour is obviously finer-ground and lighter in color (it’s the Dakota Maid brand, a very consistent and tasty product). So many of you have asked about grinding your own wheat to make whole grain breads, that I decided to try it myself.
OK, I didn’t really grind it myself, I sourced fresh-ground wheat from Sunrise Flour Mill at the Mill City Farmer’s Market, next to the Guthrie Theater in downtown Minneapolis. After Zoe and I did an event and booksigning there, Marty Glanville of Sunrise Flour came by to say hello. She gave me a great home made whole grain bread to try, made from her fresh-ground whole wheat, and I was sold. The flavor is, well, very fresh.
It’s not an absolute requirement for whole wheat bread, but here’s a little on my first experiments with this great flour. Considering how different the fresh-ground product looked compared with commercial whole wheat, I was surprised at how easily this stuff was able to be used in our Master Recipe– with no changes. After some whole wheat talk, a little about the West Coast leg of our book tour (Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco).
I loved the gorgeous whole wheat loaf that the fresh-ground flour made. It developed a very firm and crisp crust (oftentimes, oils in the wheat germ make it difficult to get a crisp result on a whole wheat loaf). The flavor was terrific– the difference from commercial flour was subtle, but very nice. It had a certain brightness and sweetness, which was a neat trick since there were no added sweeteners. I used our plain Whole Grain Master Recipe from Healthy Bread in Five Minutes a Day.
The big surprise was that this coarse, fresh-ground flour had almost exactly the same density (ounces per cup) as the commercial whole wheat in the top picture– it weighed in at 4 3/4 ounces per cup, while the Dakota Maid weighed 4 1/2 ounces per cup. So I was comfortable just swapping it in exactly for commercial whole wheat flour. The resulting dough was a touch wetter than my usual, but I just ignored it (in the first book we said “… if you worry about the bread, it won’t taste good”).
But be careful: Your own fresh-ground may be of a different density and you may need to adjust the liquid up or down, to achieve a result like you see in our videos for the whole grain breads. If you want to use these great flours, be prepared to experiment.
Why the wetter result, even though this flour’s a little denser? Makes sense to me– all those larger particles present less surface area for water to bind onto and absorb. Or something like that. Next book we should write “… if you turn this into chemistry, you may not have any fun.” And even though this dough was a little wetter, it held its shape nicely through a 90-minute counter-rest under plastic wrap, and slashed well with a bread knife (see our videos for more details on forming and slashing):
The result was great: a superior whole grain crust and a terrific flavor:
I’m going to post more about the dough that this flour made in the next 10 days, to see how well it stores compared to commercial whole wheat flour.
OK, on to the book tour. After we got back from Chicago and Milwaukee, where we were on WGN-TV, taped a podcast with ABC-TV’s Steve Dolinsky, and did two TV segments in Milwaukee (WITI-TV Fox and TMJ-TV NBC), we had a couple of days home with our families before heading off to Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco. There were many book signings along the way. Here’s Zoe in one of the very friendly local bookstores in Portland:
In Seattle, we appeared on Channel 13’s morning show (we’ll hopefully get that video clip), in a great segment with budding home baker and news anchor Mark Wright (on left). Co-anchor Lily Jang (right) wasn’t in our segment (OK, this picture was staged):
In San Francisco, we were on a live studio-audience broadcast of KGO-TV (ABC-7)’s ”The View From the Bay,” with hosts Spencer Christian and Janelle Wang, who helped us mix the Whole Grain Master Recipe. They gave us enough time for Zoe to form a 100% whole wheat Holiday Stollen (click to view).
When we weren’t working (which was almost never), we were eating. A sample platter:
At Tom Douglas’s Serious Pie in Seattle, we tried the beet salad with anchovy, pistachios, and fresh mint:
… and then the guanciale and arugula pizza. Though you can’t see it, there’s an egg cracked onto the top of the pie before baking, and it was sublime. This may look like salad sitting on top of a pizza crust, but it was perfect:
I met Tom at the Foodportunity event in Seattle and asked him if we could try to recreate this topping for our next book (on pizza and flatbread, in 2011). Answer was something along the lines of yes, but we’re not giving you our crust recipe! Fair enough. Now where do we find that guanciale (a very fatty and crazily delicious pork product)?
This trip was a joy because we got to sit down and eat with some wonderful people in the food and food-blogging world. Come visit all these great people and hear what they’ve been cooking:
http://inerikaskitchen.blogspot.com
http://lunaskitchenmagic.blogspot.com
… and so many more (Zoe, will you add?). It was great to have met you all. Onto Boston and Orlando, and then maybe that’s it for a while?
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Comments
Linda said...
November 11, 2009 at 3:24 pm
I’m always glad to see a new post and such a yummy-looking one, too! That pizza sounds like a great breakfast idea- minus the salad but with some crumbled (cooked) sausage and maybe some feta after it comes from the oven…. MMMM!
Nate said...
November 11, 2009 at 7:50 pm
That pizza looks and sounds great. You could probably substitute with prosciutto, right?
Marvyl Grinney said...
November 11, 2009 at 7:52 pm
I got my new book yesterday plus one for a gift and mixed up the master recipe today. I have two fresh loaves from the old book I baked today. (One is gone already) I love all the breads I’ve baked from the first book, but my favorite is still the Deli Rye. I look forward to exploring the recipes in the new book. Congrats on the new book…I look forward to taking another class at Cook’s. Cheers, Marvyl Grinney
Laurie said...
November 11, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Did you still have to use vital wheat gluten with the freshly ground wheat? Could you make the bread without it?
zoe said...
November 11, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Thank Ramona! Enjoy the books and all the bread! Zoë
zoe said...
November 11, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Hi Nate,
Oh yes, prosciutto sounds like a fabulous idea! Go crazy with the toppings!
Thanks, Zoë
zoe said...
November 11, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Thank you so much Marvyl!
Enjoy all the new breads you bake! We will look forward to seeing you soon in a class!
Cheers, Zoë
zoe said...
November 11, 2009 at 9:14 pm
Hi Laurie,
Yes, you still need to use the Vital Wheat Gluten with fresh-ground flours. The problem is that you won’t be able to store the dough if you don’t use it. It provides the whole wheat dough the strength it needs to store for up to 2 weeks. The recipes will also be too wet if you leave it out.
Thanks, Zoë
Michelle C. said...
November 11, 2009 at 9:21 pm
What great inspiration! I remembered a “Back to Basics” manual grain mill I had in my storage cabinet from back in the old bread machine days (circa 1991). I had some farro (emmer) in the pantry so I ground some up for the white wheat portion of the quinoa bread. I’ll be baking it later this week and will report back!
Danica said...
November 11, 2009 at 9:46 pm
WOW – that bread looks AMAZING – like I can just grab a piece from the screen. I know you said it’s not a requirement, but, maybe I should try fresh ground WW flour – it just seems like it would be that much better.
It was fun to read about your tour! MMMM ~ Beet salad – I LOVE how vibrant your pictures are.
Thanks for the link love! It was fantastic meeting you all. Good luck with the rest of your tour.
Suzan said...
November 12, 2009 at 10:54 am
Hi – I am going to try the Pumpkin Brioche today. Wondered if I could leave off the raw sugar or sprinkle with Splenda?
Sorry I missed you in Chicago; I was in the process of moving. Hope you’ll come back to the area sometime in the (near) future.
Can’t wait to try more recipes!!
Regards,
/s
jeff said...
November 12, 2009 at 11:58 am
Michelle: Break out that old mill and let us know what you find. Emmer, by the way, is available from Bluebird Grain Farms (http://www.bluebirdgrainfarms.com/)
Danica: Thanks! Hey, vibrant food partly the miracle of photoshop, partly because Serious Pie mixed up one fantastic salad dressing on those beets.
Suzan: The question is how Splenda will do in the oven heat. Will it scorch? That’s the question; neither Zoe nor I have tried it so just can’t say. Should be worth an experiment?
Jeff
Lisa said...
November 12, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Thanks so much for this post! I grind my own flour and put the release date of your book on my calendar so I could go out and buy it right away.
Unfortunately though, I’m not having much luck with the bread (delicious breadsticks with the dough though, great recipe thanks!).
The bread isn’t rising much, beforehand or in the oven. It gets wider but not taller. Based on the photo of your uncooked loaf, I’d guess mine is too wet. Does that seem like it could be causing my difficulty?
sunski said...
November 12, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Just following up on how I’ve been doing with an overnight refrigerated rest. I think that I like it even better than the 90 minute counter rest. The dough seems to rise more up, instead of out. And it’s easier for me to slash because it’s firmer when it’s cold. I’ve found that the standard 1 pound loaf takes about 5 minutes longer to bake. When I made a 1.5 pound loaf, it was more like an extra 10 minutes. The one thing that I tried that I wouldn’t recommend is letting the refrigerator-rested dough come to room temperature before baking — it spread so much sideways that the end product looked more like biscotti than bread.
While I’m at it, I’ll share my experience with the beer bread. I know that all of your doughs are supposed to develop sourdough flavors over time, but haven’t really had that happen to me until I tried the beer bread. I used a good brown ale and the dough got sourdoughy almost immediately. People loved it.
Michelle C. said...
November 12, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Jeff – here’s my followup using freshly home-ground farro for the white whole wheat portion of the quinoa bread recipe:
The best tasting bread I’ve made to date! The nuttiness and subtle sweetness were wonderful, and the crust had a delightful crispness. I used the disposable foil pan method of generating steam.
The Back to Basics mill is quite a workout. I wouldn’t want to grind the 5 cups needed for the master whole grain recipe. I’ll probably try a half or 1/3 recipe and if the flavor is also that much better, I’ll invest in a better, powered grain mill.
Marie said...
November 12, 2009 at 6:49 pm
My copy of HBi5 just arrived- I am beyond thrilled with it! I’ve already filled it with sticky notes, and I think I may be subsisting solely off bread for the next month! I think the carrot and banana recipes are going to be my first picks.
Does anyone know where I can get White Whole Wheat flour in Canada? I bounce between Toronto and Calgary, and haven’t been able to find it anywhere. I’ve checked lots of heath food stores, and all I get are strange looks and people insisting that ‘white’ whole wheat is an oxymoron. I always bring up a 5lb bag when I go to the States (and get some strange looks from the security people), but that means I ration my WWW pretty strictly. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Dana said...
November 12, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Thank you for trying the fresh flour for us. I will be very interested in how well it stores.
Since I am new to home milling, I have been looking up information on the web and have run across people who soak their flour to rid it of phytic acid (which I think binds up minerals). Seems like storing wet dough would accomplish that task well. I am a little confused about phytic acid, though. Is it that bad for you? One post made it sound like phytic acid is actually good for you. Any thoughts on any of this? Does it matter?
Thanks.
zoe said...
November 12, 2009 at 9:04 pm
Hi Lisa,
Yes, if your dough is too wet it will do as you describe. Just to make sure, you are using the vital wheat gluten with the recipe? Without it the recipe would be way too wet. The other culprit can be how the flour is measured, be sure to use the scoop and sweep method, as apposed to spooning the flour into the cup. If you are already doing both of those things it could be that your flour is just a much courser grind than the one Jeff used and it will require a bit of play to find the right amount. You can certainly add more flour to your dough, until it looks like the one in the video. When you mix in the new flour you will need to allow it to rise again before shaping, resting and baking.
I hope this helps, please keep us posted! Zoë
zoe said...
November 12, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Hi Suski,
Thank you so much for the update. I’m so glad that you are experimenting with the doughs and figuring out how to get the best result.
I love the beer bread, so glad you tried it. You are the first to give us feedback on it and I’m so thrilled you like it!
Thanks, Zoë
zoe said...
November 12, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Hi Marie,
So glad your book arrived and you will be baking from it! You can substitute whole wheat for the white whole wheat, it will just have a stronger flavor. I’ll look around to see if anyone knows where to get WWW in Canada?
Thanks, Zoë
TiV said...
November 13, 2009 at 12:37 am
Hello from Finland! Got your book 5 days after release. GREAT! Quinoa bread was really tasty. Can´t wait to test others.
Your latest post – I did not even read it through, my eyes just caughtin one sentence two words:” next book”.
Yes please!!! 
Aren´t we ever satisfied?
No, we want more!!!!!
Seriously, what you have done by now is just great. Your entusiasm inspires us. And although I am quite far away I can feel that you really honestly enjoy what you are doing. And that keeps me going also! Thank you and all the best to you both and your families for the coming season!
TiV
jeff said...
November 13, 2009 at 6:16 am
Welcome back TiV! Such a sweet note, thank you. Yes, we are already thinking about the next book, it’s been announced by the publisher. Focus will be on pizza and flatbreads from around the world. Is there a Finnish one you can recommend? Jeff
jeff said...
November 13, 2009 at 6:20 am
Dana: My quick research on phytic acid yields the same conflicting story that you’ve found. I’ll keep my eyes open for any new information. I’m not seeing any reputable information source that considers this plant-based chemical (naturally-occurring in the hull of the wheat) to be a health risk. Seems to be more of a problem in societies where they’re absolutely dependent on the grain for certain nutrients and minerals, which generally isn’t true in Western society. Thanks for the heads-up! Jeff
TiV said...
November 13, 2009 at 7:53 am
Flatbreads, sure!! Let me get together some material and I will email it to you. This might take a week or two, but dead line is not right ahead, is it? 
One more thing. I forgot to thank you that you made a note of my comment and included Fahrenheit/Celsius chart in the new book. Great help!!
Dana said...
November 13, 2009 at 9:44 am
Jeff, Thank you for your quick reply. I will relax about phytic acid.
Your new book is just what I was hoping for–even better!
Kristin said...
November 13, 2009 at 12:15 pm
I am super excited about trying the Gluten Free recipes. However, as I looked at the GF Olive Oil Bread recipe on page 238, I noticed that it calls for A LOT of cornstarch. Is this a typo? Can 3 1/2 cups be right? I just wanted to check before I tried to bake it.
One more question: Do you think the master recipe could be baked as an even larger loaf in a “commercial” size loaf pan? Maybe with a 3 pound portion of the dough? Has anyone tried this?
LJCohen said...
November 13, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Jeff–it was lovely meeting you at the Boston/Northeastern demo. Love the little chocolate breads. That will probably be my first foray into the new book. I have a dear friend who is gluten intolerant and I can’t wait to make bread for her.
Thanks to you (and to Zoe) for getting this out into the world.
best,
Lisa
Danina said...
November 13, 2009 at 2:56 pm
We have just started to grind our own flour. So far we have only tried wheat. It has been fabulous. We just bought an assortment of whole grains and are excited to see what we come up with. Thanks for the book. We love it.
Marianne said...
November 13, 2009 at 6:02 pm
I’ve also been unable to find white whole wheat flour here in British Columbia. But, I wonder how well Nutri Flour Blend by Robin Hood will work?
http://www.robinhood.ca/product.details.asp?pid=122&prodcid=9
I’ll have to give it a try some day.
It says it can be substituted 1:1 for all purpose flour which makes me think that the amount of liquid might need to be adjusted.
Sue said...
November 13, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Hi you guys! My copy of HB arrived yesterday, and today I mixed up the dough for the potato rosemary rolls (for a big dinner I’m making tomorrow). There’s a ton of potatoes in the dough…I’m nervous about it! I’ll let you know how it comes out.
Carrie said...
November 13, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Hi Jeff and Zoe,
I am a big ABin5 fan and have asked for your new book for Christmas. Meanwhile, I am looking for tips to convert standard recipes to refridgerated recipes.. I found a couple of roll recipes on epicurious.com that I want to recreate the ABin5 way!
Laura said...
November 13, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Hi sweetie,
Just saw your latest post — did you really pour flour all over my beautiful tablecloth (the one Elaina brought us from Egypt)? While the cat’s away… Hope you’re having fun in Boston. xox
zoe said...
November 13, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Hi TiV,
I can’t wait to see what flatbreads you find out about! It really was great to hear from you again, hope you enjoy the new book!
Happy baking, in celsius! Zoë
zoe said...
November 13, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Hi Lisa,
Jeff said he had so much fun at that event! I wish I had been there to meet you!
Enjoy all the new breads, Zoë
zoe said...
November 13, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Hi Marianne,
The Robin Hood flour you mention is AP with bran added back in. I think that the protein content is lower than Whole wheat and therefore you will probably have to adjust the amount of water. Not having tried it, I’m not sure by how much but I’d start with 1/4 cup less water and you can always add more if it feels too dry.
Please let us know what you think of the flour! Thanks, Zoë
zoe said...
November 13, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Hi Sue,
I love this bread, the potatoes bake up to be nice and tender. The trick is getting them to be small enough cubes and it will work just fine!
Enjoy, Zoë
zoe said...
November 13, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Hi Carrie,
The dough needs to be nice and wet or it will not store well. The rest is trial and error. If you find one you like I hope you will share with us!
Thanks, Zoë
jeff said...
November 13, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Hey Laura, are you spying on me here? I’ll have you know that in fact, the cloth in question is Jon and Lisa’s, brought back from Paris and much more washable. If you must know, it is a dishtowel, though a very nice one.
Er, is that OK?
xoxox
Marianne said...
November 13, 2009 at 9:32 pm
For my fellow bread baking Canucks, I did some checking and I found Anita’s Organic which has organic white whole wheat flour.
http://anitasorganic.com/products.php?p=2
The company is based in British Columbia, but they will ship the flour nationally. Could get a bit expensive. Fortunately for me, I know a local retailer who sells products from Anita’s Organic.
jeff said...
November 14, 2009 at 5:03 am
Marianne: Thanks for sleuthing out white whole wheat in Canada, I’m sure a lot of people will be using this link. Jeff
Cathie said...
November 14, 2009 at 9:43 am
Regarding Dana’s question about the phytic acid, I thought I’d link this article:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/79/3/418
Soaking the wheat flour before (without the salt) will inhibit the phytic acid. Some acid is recommended to jump start the process. I just add 2 tbsp of cider vinegar in place of some of the water. I’m having fantastic results with freshly milled flour and this master recipe, adding a little vinegar and no salt.
The phytic acid doesn’t bother many people. However, some people are really sensitive to it (like my two youngest boys). I see a huge difference in their ability to digest it with soaking (ie no salt and adding just a touch of vinegar).
Thanks for the tip, Jeff, on just leaving the salt out. My family is missing it though. Could I stir it in later and let it re-rest before using the dough?
Barbara said...
November 14, 2009 at 11:19 am
Are many of the recipes gluten-free? Is your table of contents available to review?
Barbara said...
November 14, 2009 at 12:06 pm
I’m also interested in Kristen’s comment (11/13) re: cornstarch amounts in the olive oil bread…. ??
jeff said...
November 14, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Cathy: I don’t think you’re going to be happy trying to mix salt into risen dough— it won’t be very uniform, plus you’ll knock all the gas out of the dough and it will be dense. Better to sprinkle salt on water-brushed crust to boost the flavor if you want to use this no-salt dough. Next time try just decreasing salt? Jeff
jeff said...
November 14, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Barbara: I just posted it somewhere, but where! There are about five to seven new gluten-free recipes (can’t exactly remember and the book isn’t in front of me at the moment). The table of contents doesn’t have the detail you need if you’re looking for GF stuff). All of the new GF recipes store well, setting them apart from everything else on the market. Zoe, can you give Barbara an accurate count? Jeff
jeff said...
November 14, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Kristen and Barbara— that is the correct amount of cornstarch– if you want a heartier, less light result, make your olive oil loaf with the crusty GF boule but swap olive oil for the neutral-flavored oil and you’ll get a boule with olive oil but not such a light result. Jeff
suzie blair said...
November 14, 2009 at 4:44 pm
As I have said before I love your books, I have enjoyed playing with the recipes. Could you please develop a stored recipe for those wonderful buttery, feathery light Parker House Rolls. Please!
CJC said...
November 14, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Hi Jeff and Zoe! Isn’t fresh ground ww great?
Just wanted to let you both know that one of the two food items my sister requested for her 20th birthday was your Kaiser Rolls.
Thank you!
zoe said...
November 14, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Hi CJC,
Happy Birthday to your sister, who has very good taste at 20!
Thanks, Zoë
Sue said...
November 15, 2009 at 7:36 am
My potato rolls came out great! Everyone loved them! Being able to see the diced potatoes was nice…usually with potato rolls the cooked potato is incorporated into the dough. So these are refreshingly different. And the salt crust….yum! This is the first whole wheat baking I’ve done in a long time, it’s amazing how 1 small roll can satisfy, I think I would have eaten 3 of them if they’d have been all white flour. Thanks!!
jeff said...
November 15, 2009 at 8:46 am
Sue: I’ve been thinking about this angle, put out there by the “Slow Food Movement” people (http://www.slowfoodusa.org/). They say that we eat so much because the food just isn’t satisfying or nutritious, just flavorless fluff. So we keep reaching for more.
I have friends who say “the better the food, the more I eat,” which goes against this. I don’t know, but I’d really like to study this. In another life, I’d have time to do and and start a research project through my University job. Not going to happen right now.
But I’m with you, hearty breads seem to satisfy more easily. Thanks for the comment, great to hear from you. Jeff
Luna said...
November 15, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Hi Jeff and Zoe!
Thanks so much for the shoutout, you are both so charming
Am loving the book and there is an open door for you anytime you want to guest on my show!
A votre sante
Luna Raven
zoe said...
November 15, 2009 at 9:44 pm
Hey Luna,
It was such a pleasure to meet you! We would love to be on your show! Any excuse at all to hang out again!
So glad you are enjoying the book! Zoë
Kylie M said...
November 16, 2009 at 6:51 am
Hi guys! Love the new book! Strangely the basic recipe is not printed on mine but it’s ok because I printed it and taped it into the page from your posts! The whole wheat loaf is great, in fact I made such a big loaf that I used half to make croutons for my husband’s salads. They’re fantastic! The seed mixture toasted up nicely and adds a lot of interest to our salads now!
I also love that you mentioned the egg on pizza, my husband and I have been doing this a lot recently and I prefer adding a partially poached egg to the pizza about half-way through baking. That way the yolk stays runny but the egg has a better shape on top of the pizza. Whenever we crack eggs on top prior to baking they seem to get a little too hard for our liking. I can’t wait to see what you come up with!
jeff said...
November 16, 2009 at 7:14 am
Kylie: The “basic recipe” in “Healthy Bread” covers seven pages in Chapter Five (pages 63 through 69). If it’s truly not printed in there, something is very wrong with your copy of the book and it should go back to the bookseller. Is it possible that you’re just not recognizing this recipe as the one from our website? It’s certainly in a different (expanded) form. Let us know what you think after taking another look.
Thanks for your tips about the egg on pizza, we need to start experimenting with that. Jeff
LindaDV said...
November 16, 2009 at 1:06 pm
We had a pizza in France with a raw egg on top. The egg was added after coming out of the oven, still very raw when it arrived at our table. We recognized the word for egg in the ingredient list on the menu, just never imagined that it would be uncooked. We will be watching for your egg on pizza ideas!
jeff said...
November 16, 2009 at 4:02 pm
LindaDV: My mouth is watering just thinking about this. All depends on how runny you like your egges. Recently had them in restaurant this way and it was perfect, just the right balance. Jeff
Louise said...
November 16, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Zoe and/or Jeff, I have a question about the rye bread. Would I get a good loaf baking it in an uncovered pullman pan so as to have lovely slices for sandwiches? I realize this is off-subject but I don’t want to buy the pan if it won’t work. Thanks.
Rosemary C said...
November 16, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Loving the book, loving the recipes. Next time you are in San Francisco, come a little further down the peninsula to San Jose. You have a lot of fans here!
jeff said...
November 17, 2009 at 7:04 am
Louise: Cheaper approach would be to just use an ordinary loaf pan like http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Metallic-Professional-Nonstick-1-Pound/dp/B00004R91A?&camp=212361&linkCode=wey&tag=arbrinfimiada-20&creative=380725. But the open pullman pan should work too.
In either case, may be 15% more baking to get it done in the center; fill 3/4-full to get a generous domed loaf. Jeff
jeff said...
November 17, 2009 at 7:05 am
Rosemary: Wish we’d had a month in the Bay Area, so beautiful. Jeff
Dorothy said...
November 17, 2009 at 10:16 am
I just bought your book and my question is this: If I make a batch of the master recipe and take orange size pieces out to bake on various nights but would like to vary the added ingredients, I will run into the problem of deflation when I add say, cheese, olives, etc. after two, three, or four days. Is it better to decide after the first two hours what the various batches are ultimately going to be and divide them up into little tupperware containers. By adding the extra ingredients and mixing I will be degassing.
Suzan said...
November 17, 2009 at 11:45 am
HI – I made the pumpkin pie brioche without using anything sweet on the top and it worked just fine! I did use the egg wash.
Regards,
Suzan
zoe said...
November 17, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Hi Dorothy,
When I add something special to the dough I usually just let it rest longer to compensate for all of the extra handling. Sometimes this will just be a few minutes more and other times it will be an extra 30 minutes. It depends on what I am adding and how much extra handling (ie kneading is done).
Hope that helps! Zoë
zoe said...
November 17, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Hi Suzan,
The sugar on top is completely optional! You could even sprinkle the top with pumpkin seeds for an entirely different taste!
Thanks, Zoë
Harry said...
November 18, 2009 at 7:12 am
Jeff,
A question on your fresh whole wheat flour: Is the flour stone ground or ground on a roller mill? If it is stone ground, that might be a bigger difference in your fresh flour, more than if the flour is 1 or 101 days old.
jeff said...
November 18, 2009 at 9:55 am
Harry: Sunrise doesn’t say whether they stone-grind or use a roller mill, but given the coarseness, I’m guessing that this is stone-ground. Jeff
Owen said...
November 20, 2009 at 7:08 am
I’ve been using your bread recipe regularly for the last 2-3 months, and I just have to write and say thank you both so much. Now I eat fresh, wholesome, gourmet quality bread every day. It’s fast, easy and produces perfect loaves every time.
Debbie said...
November 20, 2009 at 11:28 am
In your recipes where you call for unbleached all purpose flour can I just use all whole wheat flour as I am not in favor of using white flour?
jeff said...
November 20, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Debbie: No, that won’t work, whole grain flour absorbs much more water and can’t be swapped for white (all-purpose). You’ll end up with doorstops! In our new book, we address the question of how to get more whole grains, and about a dozen of the recipes are 100% whole grain. Jeff
Mary said...
November 20, 2009 at 4:13 pm
I grind my own whole wheat flour and have just started with the recipes in the new book. I am finding the dough very wet and my loaves seem to just flatten. Is vital gluten flour the same ingredient the recipes call for?
zoe said...
November 20, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Hi Mary,
It does sound as if your dough is too wet. If you are grinding your own wheat you may need to adjust the amount of flour to compensate for how fine or course it is being ground. It may be helpful to watch our video to see how wet our dough is. http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?page_id=63
Vital Wheat Gluten and Vital Wheat Gluten Flour are the same.
Hope that helps and please keep us posted! Zoë
Sara said...
November 25, 2009 at 8:01 pm
I saw you at the Borders in Roseville, and afterward, I thought of a question I should have asked. Jeff said that he started out storing dough for 30 days, and Zoe put a stop to that. What is the rationale for the 2 week time line? I know with he doughs that have eggs or milk, there is a spoilage problem (yuck), but what about the flour-salt-yeast-water doughs? Is it a quality issue or a food safety issue?
Carolyn said...
November 26, 2009 at 7:20 pm
We have been grinding our wheat for years. The main advantage to baking absolutely fresh bread, is of course, nutrient retention.
However, your method also preserves nutrients so we (my husband and I) are rethinking our ‘daily grind’ approach.
Thank you so much!
Rosalyn said...
November 29, 2009 at 9:38 am
I have been enjoying this thread – lots of good questions and information! We use sprouted wheat flour in our house and I wondered if anyone here had tried using it with the 5 minute technique?
zoe said...
November 29, 2009 at 9:52 am
Hi Rosalyn,
We have not played with sprouted grains yet, but there has been tons of interest and perhaps others will weigh in on their experiences!
Thanks, Zoë
Rosalyn said...
November 29, 2009 at 11:44 am
Thanks for the fast response, Zoe! I will give it a shot in the next few weeks and let you know how it goes!
Elizabeth M said...
November 29, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Quick question. I’m making my first batch of the pain d’epi from your first book. Right now I have bread flour for it. But I’m wondering, now that I’m stocking vital wheat gluten for the recipes in HBin5, is there a way to mix VWG and AP flour to make a usable substitute for bread flour for those recipes that require it? If so, any suggestions on proportions? It would be nice (if it works) to have one fewer flour to keep in stock.
Thanks again for all the help on this site.
zoe said...
November 29, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Hi Elizabeth,
The only recipe in the book that requires bread flour is the Epi, so you won’t need to recreate that flour often for our recipes. In all truth I usually use the master recipe to create the epi, but you will get a bit more definition using the recipe as it appears in the book.
You can use a couple of tablespoons of the VWG to boost the gluten forming protein in the flour if you like, but you will also need to add a few more tablespoons of water to compensate for that.
Thanks an enjoy! Zoë
Halley said...
December 5, 2009 at 10:02 am
Hi there,
We just made our first batch of dough using the master recipe from Healthy Bread book. We put in a plastic container and I am wondering if you snap the lid when putting in the fridge. We didn’t and hopefully that is okay. Also thanks for mentioning Bluebird Grains for the emmer flour…I work there..small organic family farm so we appreciate the plug.
zoe said...
December 5, 2009 at 10:28 pm
Hi Halley,
You did it just right, close the lid, but don’t snap it shut.
How wonderful that you have access to emmer all the time. What a wonderful place to work. It is a rare and wonderful treat for us!
Thanks, Zoë
Barbara said...
December 6, 2009 at 9:14 pm
You can grind your own whole wheat flour. I’ve been doing for more than 30 years. I buy wheat berries from my food coop in 50# bags and grind it in my very simple 30 year old electric grinder that has stones. Ummm. It’s so fresh and it takes very little time as long as you have an electric grinder. Now that hand grinder which was my first (a Corona as I remember) took hours and lots of muscle to grind enough flour to bake a batch of bread.
Jerry said...
December 7, 2009 at 4:55 pm
If I’d like to double or triple a recipe, do I just double or triple the amount of dough for a loaf and then bake it at double or triple the amount of time called for by the recipe? And at what temperature … the same or less than called for in the recipe?
zoe said...
December 7, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Hi Jerry,
We often bake an entire batch off as one large loaf. It requires additional rising time and baking time. We recommend that you make the loaf lower and wider and not try to make it super tall. This will help the crumb from being too dense. You may have to let it rest as long as 2 hours and allow it to bake for about 50 minutes, depending on how large a loaf you end up with. You can keep the temperature the same as the recipe calls for.
Thanks, Zoë
Carrie said...
December 8, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Hello Jeff & Zoe,
I have loved each recipe I have tried from both of your books. It makes dinner so easy to prepare having dough in the refrigerator ready to go!
I have a question though, I do grind my own wheat berries. I use Spring white hard wheat berries. Any dough I make with the whole wheat flour discolors on top after a day or two in the refrigerator. It’s like a weird gray color. I would guess from oxidation?? I don’t know. I have tried keeping the lid on tight, slightly open and just sitting on the bucket with and it always discolors on top. I usually just scrape off the top that is discolored and the dough works fine underneath.
I was wondering if you might know what I might be doing wrong, or what I could try to avoid this (I hate wasting the dough).
Thanks,
Carrie
jeff said...
December 9, 2009 at 8:20 am
Carrie: That color is typical in longer-stored doughs, but I haven’t heard of it this early. I’m guessing that it is a difference with fresh-ground wheat (though I didn’t see it when I used fresh-ground wheat from a miller). I am guessing that you don’t even need to scrape it off. Just use the dough as always.
And if you see patches of color on the dough surface, either light or dark, fuzzy or not, that could be mold and it has to be discarded. A uniform dark color is not mold. Sometimes dark liquid collects above the dough, that’s fine too. Just pour it off.
On way to get less of this; store in a taller, thinner container and there’ll be less exposed surface. Jeff
Carrie said...
December 9, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Thanks Jeff, that makes sense to store it in a taller, thinner container. I will try that.
Chris said...
December 15, 2009 at 10:03 pm
I get my wheat from Anita’s organics as well. Wonderful people, and clean fresh product.
Julissa said...
December 18, 2009 at 5:47 pm
I saw that someone else already asked this question but I feel really stupid but I didn’t quite get the response. I purchased the Cambr6qt plastic storage container. Do I just “place” the lid on top or do I snap it shut. Your book states it should not be “airtight.” Would snapping it shut be considered “airtight?” When I just place the lid over the top it’s sort of cockeyed and has some gaps so air gets in the container.
Julissa said...
December 18, 2009 at 5:52 pm
In The King Arthur’s WHole Grain Baking book some recipes call for potato flour to soften/moisten the dough as well as dry milk powder. Could those products be incorporated into your Healthy Bread recipes?
Julissa said...
December 18, 2009 at 5:55 pm
I like using whole wheat because of its health benefits but frankly I don’t care for the taste of whole wheat flour. In the King Arhtur’s Whole Grain Baking they use orange juice to lessen the tannic taste of the whole wheat. Can I use orange juice in your recipes?
jeff said...
December 18, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Julissa: For some plastic containers, snapping it shut does produce an airtight seal. So for the 1st 48 hours, I leave mine open a crack. Sounds like yours is not airtight and you can probably leave it snapped.
We use a little dry milk powder in a few recipes; its main function is to tenderize whole grain loaves. As for potato flour– have to admit, we’ve never tested with it. But– we do find that using mashed potatoes in recipes adds moisture, so you’re probably on the right track. Check out our potato recipes in both books. I would guess that you can use potato flour with similar effect; let us know what you find if you give this a shot.
Orange juice and other fruit juices work nicely in bread recipes, you can give this a try. Haven’t tested the threshold of what’s “too much” OJ, but we use as much as 3 cups of sweeter juices (like prune) in some of our recipes in “Healthy Bread.” My guess is that you have to go easier with OJ, it can be sour in cooked foods. Jeff
Rochelle said...
December 25, 2009 at 6:55 pm
I made the 10-grain bread today. I had to substitute some of the ingredients in the Bob’s 10-grain cereal as I can’t have soybeans, or flax-I used some brown rice flour, buckwheat, and coconut flour. I grind my own wheat, using white wheat, and I used bread flour in place of the all-purpose flour.
The loaf after baking was just a tiny bit bigger than the loaf before baking-I weighed the dough before baking and it was 1lb. How big is the loaf supposed to be after baking?? I did the elongated shape, and baked it on a baking stone. It tastes good, but I was disappointed that it wasn’t a bigger loaf.
Do you think the substitutions I made might have affected the end result??
Do you have any suggestions of how to get a bigger loaf??
Thank you for your help.
jeff said...
December 26, 2009 at 9:48 am
Rochelle: I’m guessing that the dough was too dry for our approach– you can’t just swap bread flour because that absorbs much more water than AP. You could try this again, using about 1/4 to 1/2 cup more water.
Our method depends on “oven spring” for its rise, more so than traditional dough. The dry dough didn’t help here. However, that said— don’t expect exhuberant rise during “proofing” with our method. Measure your oven temp with a thermometer– if it’s hot enough, you’ll get better oven spring. Jeff
Rochelle said...
December 27, 2009 at 10:38 am
Thank you Jeff….I didn’t realize the bread flour would absorb more water, and I’ll check my oven temp too-I appreciate your help!! I’ll let you know how the next batch turns out!!
jeff said...
December 27, 2009 at 11:20 am
Rochelle: Yep, that’s the issue, protein binds up water. It’s pretty dramatic actually. Jeff
Michele said...
December 29, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Just discovered your books today… went and picked up the Healthy Breads one because I couldn’t wait to have it delivered. I am getting ready to make my first batch in a few minutes… came online to see if there were any more tips on high elevation. I now live at almost 8,000 feet (Rocky Mtns) and so far, my bread baking has not gone well. I will admit that I was hoping for more information in the book on higher elevation bread-making. 
In regards to home milling, I have the Wolfgang mill (gorgeous appliance!) and I LOVE grinding my own wheat. Mine grinds it much finer that the photo you showed… mine ends up looking no different than store-bought WW flour, but the aroma is a M-A-J-O-R difference!! Fresh ground WW flour has a pleasant aroma that puts the cardboard-smelling store-bought version to SHAME!! I’ve also read how fresh ground retains the nutrients much better than flours that have had a shelf life.
I am eager to see how your technique will help me – I’m very excited!
zoe said...
December 29, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Hi Michelle,
So glad you are going to give the recipes a try. Here is a post about high altitude baking and it is very helpful to read through the comments to see what others have done to get a good result. http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=144
Enjoy the bread and your mill, I want one! Zoë
Bonnie said...
December 31, 2009 at 10:06 am
I made the garlic knots from your new book and they were good but the garlic was too brown. I think I may have chopped it too fine or cooked it too long in the olive oil. I added parsley but left off the cheese. I was wondering if they would be good using butter instead of the olive oil. I think they would be good done with the basic recipe from the first book too and I am going to try that. I love your books and haven’t bought any bread since I got the first book over a year ago.
jeff said...
December 31, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Bonnie: Maybe your oven’s too hot, have you checked w/thermometer? Butter should be good too but won’t help the over-browned garlic problem. Jeff
Bonnie said...
December 31, 2009 at 5:35 pm
I got the thermometer back when I bought your book, the stone, etc. The oven isn’t too hot. I never have a problem with your bread and I did make the bialy’s with garlic and they were fine.
I chopped the garlic in my little Cusinart chopper so maybe it was just chopped too fine. I chopped by hand for the bialy’s.
jeff said...
January 1, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Bonnie: Another option, bake lower in the oven, browns the top crust less. Jeff
Michelle said...
January 2, 2010 at 12:14 pm
I use my own home-milled flour, and have for years. I just weighed a cup of my flour and it is 5.1 oz, and I made a “trial” batch of dough. It looks drier. How much should I try increasing liquids by? I’m an “old hand” at breadmaking the old fashioned way, but I’m used to kneading so am unsure what to do with this dough. My flour, however, is by and large very fine–finer than store-bought whole wheat flour. I use white wheat.
jeff said...
January 2, 2010 at 4:16 pm
Michelle: Try an extra quarter-cup of water per batch and see what you think. Increase to 1/2 cup if it’s not enough. Jeff
Susan said...
January 3, 2010 at 1:17 pm
I just came upon your books and I am excited to get started. I have a question. . .The Whole Grain Garlic Knots in the HB p64 has cheese in the ingredients, but not mentioned anywhere in the recipe. Is that for dipping later, or do you top with cheese after the drizzled oil mixture?
zoe said...
January 3, 2010 at 9:11 pm
Hi Susan,
Thanks for giving the book a try. The cheese is meant to be sprinkled over the knots before they are baked. Thank you for catching that and we’ll add it to the error page.
Enjoy! Zoë
Ellen said...
January 5, 2010 at 9:26 pm
Hi Jeff & Zoe, I LOVE you recipes! Thank you so much for making that first one available on youtube.com. I am really into homemaking and preparedness. I like to learn about healthy grains and so I was excited to buy your 2nd book this holiday season. I have been telling ALL my friends and teaching them how to make it. They are so impressed with the great bread and they keep asking me for recipes. I am grateful that you have provided the two master recipes on your website, so I feel okay about sharing those, but what should I do about someone who is excited, but not yet ready to buy your book? Can I share your other recipes too?
Thanks,
Ellen
jeff said...
January 6, 2010 at 6:52 am
Ellen: Please “share” them by referring people to this website or to the books themselves. Word of mouth is everything for us, people doing what you are doing is exactly what has made our books a success. So thank you! Jeff
Merri said...
January 21, 2010 at 6:14 am
I’m using stone ground flour from locally grown and locally milled wheat. It’ very coarse and I’ve had to add more than half again as much flour (an additional 2 3/4- 3 cups), so I added a little more wheat gluten, yeast and salt. I know I’m measuring correctly, but when I made the Volkornbrot, the dough simply didn’t rise much at all. (I’m using a larger non stick pan–9×5) The taste is great, but it’s a very flat loaf. Should I increase the resting time–or perhaps increase the amount of flour?
Thanks. I love the technique and want to be able to use this terrific locavore flour.
zoe said...
January 21, 2010 at 12:46 pm
Hi Merri,
How much additional Vital Wheat Gluten are you adding to the bread? The extra gluten will help the dough hold its shape and give it additional structure so it will rise better. You may also need to increase the water because it absorbs lots of water. If your dough is too dry it will not rise well because the gluten will not have enough hydration to form.
Let me know if that helps or even makes sense?
Zoë
Yvonne said...
January 26, 2010 at 11:13 am
Maybe a challenge…..!
I love Natural Ovens brand “Hunger Filler” bread, but live in an area that no longer carries it (and, it’s probably like $4+ a loaf!) Now that I know how to make great bread, how can I make a similar kind? The ingredients are as follows (and why vinegar in the recipe?): whole wheat flour, filtered water, rolled oats, ground flaxseed, vital wheat gluten, brown sugar. Contains 2% or less of the following: sunflower seeds, wheat fiber, sunflower oil, inulin, yeast, soy lecithin, sea salt, barley malt powder, cultured wheat starch, vinegar, ascorbic acid, enzyme blend (wheat flour, dextrose, natural enzymes), sesame seeds.
http://www.naturalovens.com/Shop/Bakery/Breads/Hearty_&_Satisfying/Hunger_Filler_Bread.html
And lastly, I also LOVE Food For Life’s Ezekiel 4:9 sprouted grain bread, but can’t keep paying nearly $6 a loaf for it! It’s a flourless, sprouted grain bread, high in protein and fiber (4g protein and 3g fiber per 34g slice). The ingredients are sprouted 100% whole wheat, water, sprouted barley, sprouted millet, malted barley, sprouted lentils, sprouted soybeans, sprouted spelt, yeast, and wheat gluten. Or, do you have a simliar recipe in your HB5M (I’m hoping to add this to my AB5M soon!)
http://www.foodforlife.com/sprouted-grain-difference/ezekiel-4-9.html
zoe said...
January 26, 2010 at 1:51 pm
Hi Yvonne,
I think you will love Betsy’s seeded Oat Bread on page 147. We use lots more seeds and a wider variety of them, but you can use just sunflower and adjust the amount to taste, just no more than what the recipe calls for.
Neither of us has experimented with sprouted grains yet, but there has been lots of requests for it.
Thanks! Zoë
Yvonne said...
January 26, 2010 at 5:31 pm
Thanks Zoe! I just want to tell you and Jeff a very sincere thank you for your books. I had a “hate relationship” with yeast…I never could seem to get it right. Now, I actually *like* to bake breads because they always turn out delicious with minimal fuss. I just made the chocolate bread recipe, using the muffin tins, and I think I like it better than chocolate *cake*!!! THANK YOU BOTH for making baking bread fun and easy, as it should be!!!!
jeff said...
January 26, 2010 at 7:05 pm
Yvonne: So glad it’s working for you! Jeff
Sandra said...
January 27, 2010 at 9:54 pm
I made the yogurt spelt bread from HBi5 today and used fresh ground spelt flour, ground in my Vita Mix blender with the dry blade. The dough was really wet and I couldn’t figure out why….now I know. Nevertheless, I baked them as rolls and they were very light and rose well. I’ll adjust the amount of flour next time.
I had the same grayish layer on the top of my six-day-old milk and honey bread and I didn’t use freshly ground flour for that. It’s happened before when I’ve soaked flour for muffins or pancakes in yogurt or buttermilk.
Finally, Cathie wrote early on about adding vinegar to replace some of the water and not using salt to help with phytic acid. Cathie, if you’re reading this, why is it important to leave out the salt?
zoe said...
January 28, 2010 at 11:02 am
Hi Sandra,
I’m so glad that your bread tasted great! That recipe is very wet to begin with so you may have to add even more of the fresh ground flour. Here is a list of the errors we have found in the book and that recipe happens to be one of the few: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?page_id=73
The grayish layer happens on all of the doughs if it has been inactive for a time. It is the same process that happens to a sour dough starter and is completely normal. The liquid that forms as well is also normal. If you are using a dough with eggs or dairy you want to freeze after the amount of storing time has elapsed, but non-enriched doughs can live a long time in the refrigerator.
Thanks, Zoë
Christi said...
February 1, 2010 at 6:51 am
I have made two batches of the 100 % whole wheat bread on page 79, while the flavor has been wonderful, the dough seems almost grainy with no elasticity. I thought maybe it was too wet and tried adding more flour, it did not seem to help, it does not rise in the oven. When I made the next batch I weighed everything, same results. I love making bread, what am I doing wrong. I am using Hodgson Mill 100% Stone Ground whole wheat flour. I am trying not to handle it too much but the tops are never smooth as with other dough so I might be!?
Thanks,
Christi
zoe said...
February 2, 2010 at 7:00 am
Hi Christi,
When you added more flour was it after the dough had risen and was refrigerated or was it right as you were mixing the initial dough? Our doughs are quite wet, but after the initial rise and some refrigeration the flour will absorb the water.
I think the graininess that you had is due to the type of flour and not the wetness. Some whole wheat flours are ground courser than others and will have a very different feel to them. You can try adding a touch more vital wheat gluten to the next batch, but it will require also adding a couple more tablespoons of water to compensate.
I suggest you try some flatbreads with your remaining dough from the batch that is too dry. They will be very tasty and you will not perceive the denseness in the dough.
Thanks, Zoë
Christi said...
February 2, 2010 at 3:28 pm
Thanks Zoe, I will try some flat breads. I added the flour after it had risen and had been in the refrigerator a couple of days, then I let it sit a couple of hours on the counter and then over night in the fridge. It feels really wet but it doesn’t have any type of elasticity to it like on your videos. I’ll play with it and maybe try a different flour.
Thanks,
Christi
Margee said...
February 3, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Hi! I am wondering about sprouted flours. I have whole wheat sprouted flour and I’m wondering if I can use it in your master recipe. I would also like to know if it’s OK to store the bread dough in a stainless steel bowl. Thank you!
Margee
jeff said...
February 4, 2010 at 12:40 pm
Margee: Stainless is fine…
I’m sure sprouted WW would work well in our first book’s recipes, where WW makes up a relatively low proportion of the total flour. As for the 2nd book, I think you need to experiment; I’m guessing it will work. Jeff
Matt said...
February 4, 2010 at 2:41 pm
Ok, last night i made the dough for your 10 grain bread and noticed it said 3.5 cups of water rather than the 4 that the master recipe calls for. So i added the 3.5 cups of water and after the 2 hour rise it looked awesome so i put in fridge to make after school. Well today, it was as solid as a brick… Something went wrong. It seems that my bread never turns out. Either due to elevation at 4600 feet or just bad yeast or something. hahah thanx Jeff and Zoe
zoe said...
February 4, 2010 at 9:10 pm
Hi Matt,
Thanks for letting us know. What kind of 10 grain cereal are you using? I wonder if some of them have some grains in them that are thirstier than others and result in a dry dough? If you still have some of the dough left you can just add some more water and let it sit to soften up the remaining dough.
Have you read the info we have on high altitude baking? Some people have to make some alterations to the dough to get a nice loaf at that elevation. http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=144
Thanks, Zoë
Matt said...
February 4, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Zoe, thanx for the reply. I am using Bobs red mill since it is readily available at some of my stores around here.
I wondered the same thing about the cereal because it just drank the water up like it was nothing. i did bake it though. Just didnt have any oven spring and it was way dense. Good eats though with butter and honey.
I have now read your high altitude advice. Looks as if i will decrease yeast a we bit and add a lil more water to make a stickier dough. I was thinking of trying to add a 1/2 cup honey and 3.25 cups water? give it a lil sweetness and more liquid as well. All i know is it soaked up all the water like a dang sponge. haha
thanx for the advice. Let me know what you think about the honey idea!!
Matt
zoe said...
February 4, 2010 at 9:51 pm
Hi Matt,
I think the honey will be very tasty. Just keep in mind that honey will feed the yeast and make it very active, which could add to the problems of high altitude baking. If you add the honey, you may want to do the refrigerator rise to slow down the yeast.
Thanks, Zoë
Matt said...
February 4, 2010 at 10:25 pm
Hahaha. dang. Is that with any bread that contains honey? IE, the100% whole wheat plain and simple with the honey variation. My first issue before i worry to much bout high altitude is the water issue. Not all flour is created equal. So maybe bobs 10 grain cereal is the same way. Some days it feels it needs more water and other days it doesnt. haha.
thanx Zoe..
Matt
oh by the way. i have told many many people about yours and jeffs books. I even go to my friends local bakehouse now and discuss it with him.
zoe said...
February 5, 2010 at 9:55 am
Hi Matt,
Any breads with sweetener will get the yeast all excited, so you may want to experiment with a loaf that has lots of honey and one that has little or none and see if that makes a difference?
Thanks for spreading the word! Zoë
Matt said...
February 6, 2010 at 9:59 am
Hey Zoe.
Thanx for the help and replies. Im going to do some experimenting with the light whole wheat from the first book. I will use 1 cup bobs red mill 10 grain cereal rather than one cup whole wheat all purpose flour that the book calls for. I will also cut the yeast back. Then i will try it again but this time using bread flour instead of unbleached AP flour. And at any time the dough looks like it is drinking all the water i will add a lil more to it
thanx
zoe said...
February 6, 2010 at 11:44 am
Hi Matt,
Sounds like fun, keep us posted!
Thanks, Zoë
Lolly Rice said...
February 6, 2010 at 4:27 pm
I have broken two stones and am wondering what I am doing wrong? They are from Pampered Chef and they say the preheating and water maybe ruining the stone. I am looking for a different brand or what would I ask for at a building store? I love the bread and havent boughten a loaf since I received the recipe. Please help!
jeff said...
February 6, 2010 at 5:19 pm
Lolly: It’s not the preheating and the water, I’m guessing, since I haven’t had this problem and I always preheat and use steam. Here are some alternatives to steam, though:
Baking in a Dutch Oven: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=552
Aluminum Roasting Pan for Crust: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=510
Cloche baking: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=566
I’ve had good durability with 1/2-inch thick stones, but very poor durability with the 1/4-inch ones. I’m happy with the Old Stone brand, on Amazon at http://www.amazon.com/Old-Stone-14-Inch-16-Inch-Baking/dp/B0000E1FDA?&camp=212361&linkCode=wey&tag=arbrinfimiada-20&creative=380725
A cheaper option is to look for unglazed quarry tile at a building supply store. It has to be unglazed or it’s not food-safe, as best as I can tell. And these are pretty durable, I’m told. Jeff
Matt said...
February 6, 2010 at 5:38 pm
Lolly,
I have the pampered chef stone and have been using it for the last 2 years. It has worked great for me. So it cant be the preheat and water. If anything a full cold stone placed in a hot oven would be more damaging. Its like cooking a frog. haha. A frog in boiling water will jump out but if you slowly heat up the water he wont jump out.
same principle. haha.
k kelso said...
February 6, 2010 at 8:22 pm
Your bread recipes in “Mother Earth News” Jan2010, have inspired me to bake bread once again, it has been years since I have baked any bread. I do not know what pizza peel is and is the seed mixture something that can be purchased or is it simply a mixture of seeds that I like and mix together?
Thanks
zoe said...
February 7, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Hi Lolly,
The only time I’ve heard of this happening is when the broiler pan for the water is placed too close to the stone. They need to be at least 4-5 inches apart.
Thanks, Zoë
zoe said...
February 7, 2010 at 1:38 pm
Hi K Kelso,
The pizza peel is the flat board that is used to get the bread in and out of the oven. http://www.amazon.com/Epicurean-Cutting-Surfaces-14-Inch-Natural/dp/B000PRI3TS/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1265574976&sr=8-4 You can also use a cookie sheet that has no sides.
The seed mixture can be any seeds that you enjoy or you can purchase one through King Arthur Flour http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/artisan-bread-topping-8-oz
Thanks and enjoy all the bread, Zoë
Matt said...
February 8, 2010 at 8:12 pm
Zoe, So i tried the light whole wheat recipe from the first book but instead of using 1 cup whole wheat i used the following:
5 cups unbleached AP flour
1/2 cup whole wheat( i ran out of AP flour. had to make do)
1 cup bobs red mill 10 grain cereal
added maybe a tblsp extra of water and it worked AMAZINGLY.. Now if i can buy a steamer oven so i can get a chewy crust like a bagel. That would be awesome.. haha
thanx Zoe and jeff for the help.
Matt said...
February 8, 2010 at 8:13 pm
opps, i forgot to mention. i baked it at 430 not 450
jeff said...
February 8, 2010 at 9:21 pm
Matt: Try our steam alternatives–
Baking in a Dutch Oven: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=552
Aluminum Roasting Pan for Crust: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=510
Cloche baking: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=566
Matt said...
February 9, 2010 at 8:19 pm
Thanx jeff. Im diggin the dutch oven style. I have like 5 cast iron ovens. Cant live in utah and not dutch oven. hahah But like i said my dutch ovens are thick cast iron… Might have to buy one that looks like the one in the article.
Cant wait now to try this idea..
Kcaarin Pineau said...
February 17, 2010 at 4:42 pm
I bought your first book before I realized it wasn’t whole grain and was wondering how hard it would be to convert the recipes to whole grain. I grind my own flour and often have to do this with recipes. (of course I often have a lot of guess work to do that would be taken out with the other book. I’m just really excited to get started)
jeff said...
February 17, 2010 at 6:07 pm
Kccaarin: Thanks for hanging in there with us. Keep in mind that grinding your own introduces uncertainty in measurement amounts. You may not be quite as lucky as I was in this post, in terms of the fresh-ground product behaving just like commercial whole wheat. Come back anytime you have questions. Jeff
kathi said...
February 22, 2010 at 9:37 am
Hi!
I recently bought the HBin5 book, and have tried quite a few of the recipes – and they’re all great!
My question-can I use King Arthur’s Harvest Grains blend in place of the ten-grain hot cereal? I can’t seem to find it anywhere that I shop. Or is there a recipe that I could use it in?
Thanks!
zoe said...
February 22, 2010 at 12:35 pm
Hi Kathi,
I have never tried it, but other readers have and really liked the results. If you do try it please let us know what you think!
Thanks, Zoë
Matt said...
February 27, 2010 at 10:47 am
Just out of curiosity, what kills ovenspring? For example, i made a batch of the light whole wheat bread in the first book. But i added half a cup of honey and reduced the water by half a cup. I let it rise and double. and put it in the fridge for a few days. Shaped the dough and put it in a loaf pan let it rise for 1.5 hours or more till it filled 3/4ths of the loaf pan. Baked it and it was the same size when it was done as when it finished rising. Literally no oven spring. Maybe the cup of 10 grain cereal or the honey killed the oven spring. hahaha
thanx.
Jackie said...
March 13, 2010 at 8:43 am
On the Bavarian Style Whole Grain Pumpernickle Bread. How wet should the dough be? It was not sticky at all and the bread was a bit dense but it was still delicious. Is this normal or do I need to make a wetter dough. I know flours can dry out so sometimes you need to add more water. I have no problems with the original master recipe in the first book. That dough is quite wet compared to the pumpernickle recipe.
jeff said...
March 13, 2010 at 6:48 pm
Jackie: Should be pretty damp, don’ t know why you’re not getting that, but flours differ and sometimes we never figure it out. Are you using bleached flour for the white (doesn’t work).
Wet it down a bit and you should be happier. Jeff
silenia said...
March 22, 2010 at 3:07 pm
I LOVE your book: HBin5
I just started using it two weeks ago and bought a ton of organic whole wheat flour from the bulk isle…it definitely looks more like the fresh ground stuff you posted above.
I am having two problems with it…
First, I have not once gotten an elastic dough. I can just scoop my dough out with my hand and when I try to mold it, it just falls apart instead of creating a shape. I am having trouble deciding if it is too wet or too dry.
Second, when I bake the dough it has filled the entire house with the smell of vinegar, every time! I have tried the Master Recipe, the Soft Whole Wheat Loaf, and the Whole Wheat Brioche, and all three smell like vinegar (I have tried baking with and without the stone in the oven and it is not the stone). The flavor is also very sour-dough-like. Is this supposed to be like that? I don’t mind the flavor but the smell is truly horrible!
What do I do?!
Thanks so much for your books and website. Despite all the experimentation, I am having a lot of fun!
jeff said...
March 22, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Silenia: Our stuff develops sourdough characteristics with storage, but it sounds like that’s a flavor that’s not to your liking. Maybe shorter storage times? Freeze the dough if you don’t use it within 48 hours? Break it up into loaf-sized pieces before freezing.
About elasticity with the flour you describe– all I can say is that you need to experiment. Unlike commercial flour, these fresh-ground products are highly, highly variable. I’m guessing that it has to be drier, but it’s not really possible for me to be sure based on what I know. See what you think as you experiment. Jeff
Gretchen said...
March 28, 2010 at 6:26 am
I recently attended a video seminar on the health benefits of freshly ground flour. Do you have any information about the loss of nutrients after wheat is ground into flour. According to this lady nutrients are lost through oxidation. So much so that after 24 hours 50 percent of the good stuff is gone and after 3 days 90 percent. I would just like to verify this information as I find your method very much to my liking. According to the information I got I need to bake my bread the same day I grind the flour to keep the nutrition in it. I’m kinda bummed about that. Any information you have would be fantastic. Thanks in advance.
jeff said...
March 28, 2010 at 6:28 am
Gretchen: I’m not finding enough credible science on this subject to make a recommendation one way or another. All I can say for sure is that I liked the flavor of the really fresh stuff, though to be honest, not enough to invest in the grinder or find an economical source for fresh-ground flour (you probably won’t find such a thing– it would be an expensive proposition; the only economical way to do this would be to grind your own).
Sorry I can’t be a bigger help– I’m really skeptical about the health claims being made. I recently pulled a paper, and all the references were 15 years old– that’s a red flag that the authors have an axe to grind and can’t find any recent research to back up their claims. Jeff
zoe said...
March 28, 2010 at 8:02 pm
Hi Gretchen,
Many commercial flours add nutrients back into the flour because of the issues you are talking about. I’m not sure if the numbers you heard are accurate, but I am certain that using whole grains are still much healthier for you than white flours, if for the bran alone.
Perhaps Jeff can add more to this?
Thanks, Zoë
Gretchen said...
March 30, 2010 at 4:49 am
Jeff & Zoe:
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it.
Nina said...
April 20, 2010 at 2:50 pm
I have read that whole grains and flours are rendered much more nutritious if soaked prior to use. This neutralizes phytic acid which “binds” many of the grains nutrients so the human body can’t access them. My question: does the wet-dough method, with dough stored til needed, effectively provide the same effect as soaking? I am wondering if there is sufficient acid in most recipes to accomplish soaking (or does it develop as the yeast works?) and secondly, if the grain continues the soaking process while the dough is refrigerated – or whether it would be better (assuming there is sufficient acidic value) to leave the dough at room temperature a little longer to maximize nutrient value?
I love your book – have always enjoyed baking bread but it was a time-consuming pastime. Got ABin5 for Christmas and my family has eaten home-cooked bread probably 60% of the time since then. Maximizing the nutrition in my home cooked bread is just icing on the cake!
(I mean, brioche ).
Thanks for your work.
jeff said...
April 21, 2010 at 4:54 am
Nina: The science on the importance of phytic acid, soaking techniques, and nutrient content is far from clear, especially for people who get an otherwise balanced diet. I just don’t know how to answer.
But yes, from what I’ve read, what we do sounds like it might accomplish something similar to soaking. I would guess that the process continues in the fridge. And no harm in leaving it at room temp a little longer, so long as it’s not an egg-based dough.
Thanks for trying the method! Jeff
Nina said...
April 21, 2010 at 5:53 am
Thanks for the response, Jeff.
It does seem to me, as someone who cooks from scratch a lot and who generally avoids most highly processed foods that perhaps soaking flour is one ‘healthy food obsession’ too many! So if you’re finding the science is unclear, I think I’m happy to keep bumbling along as our forebears mostly have – soaking some stuff, not soaking others, by happenstance through following the recipe. Interesting to think that – if there is something to the phytic acid claim – your method may enhance nutrition. Meanwhile, I’m confident it’s feeding my family well – because they’re eating it, I get to know what went into it, and it’s nice and fresh!
I hope you succeed in pushing the envelope on a DIY cooking revolution.
Cheers,
Nina
jeff said...
April 21, 2010 at 9:33 am
Thanks for the kind words, Nina. This field is a mixture of science, tradition, and hopefully flavor. It’s hard to know exactly the right path. To my surprise, most readers of the 2nd book seem to get that, as you do. Jeff
Carole said...
April 22, 2010 at 9:46 am
Oh, dear, I hope you can help me! I’m using freshly ground hard white wheat flour with unbleached a-p, and the gluten strands in the dough just don’t seem to be there (better in the second batch after decreasing a-p flour, but nothing like your video), so that makes me think the dough is too dry. But when it rests for 90 min, it spreads quite a bit and there are pretty large “craters” on the surface of the loaf, so that makes me think the dough’s too wet!
I’m going to persevere- this is SUCH a great concept, but do you have any suggestions?
Thanks so much!
jeff said...
April 22, 2010 at 11:12 am
Carole: All bets are off with fresh-ground wheat, you never know how finely ground and what its water-absorbing capacity is going to be. Keep experimenting until you have a wet dough that holds a shape as a free-form. Too wet and it spreads sideways… too dry and it doesn’t store well, and in general, is a dry result with little rise.
Most important, don’t expect much “stranding” if you’re using more than 50% whole grain flour. Bran and germ interfere with that; you may be happier with bread baked in a loaf pan with this particular flour. Spreading becomes a non-issue. Jeff
Carole said...
April 22, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Thanks, Jeff! BTW, the first loaf from the second batch has cooled and is definitely better in terms of internal structure.
It was great to get such a quick reply- thank you!
Melanie said...
May 1, 2010 at 2:08 pm
We have both your books now and we love them! We are so thankful to have fresh baked bread on a regular basis and your method is so easy! Artisan bread used to be a special treat, but now we have it all the time! (our waistlines do not thank you! haha) Our goal now is to figure out which WW bread recipe we want to use as our everyday sandwich bread.
So far, I have only tried two of the whole wheat recipes (and I will continue to experiment) but I wanted to note my techniques and results compared to others. So first thing I should mention is that I am using fresh ground whole wheat flour that I am grinding from hard red spring berries. I grind it in my vitamix using the dry blade container and my flour turns out very soft & fine, not coarse at all. I used to buy hard red winter berries, but I thought I read that artisan bakers like the spring berries better. Now I found an article that contradicts that so I am wondering what other people are using and what their results have been. I noticed a lot of people mentioned their dough being too wet, but I would say my dough is running on the dry side. I believe the hard red spring berries have a much higher protein content( as much as 15%) which I thought would mean I would get those nice gluten strands, but that’s not the case.
The first loaf I tried was the master recipe from HBin5. It turned out okay; the flavor wasn’t bad, but the loaf didn’t look like it should. Not a lot of spring, very hard crust, but a dense, moist interior. Then I realized I baked it at the wrong temp; 450 instead of 350. Could that have been the only problem? Also, I did add some harvest grains from KAF (which we think are a great addition to any loaf) but I didn’t soak them first since the dough would rest in the fridge for days. Could they have soaked up too much moisture?
The second loaf I tried was from ABin5 and it was the 100% whole wheat sandwich bread. This one I cooked at the right temp and the only adjustment I made was that I ran out of honey so I used agave in place of the honey. Normally if I use agave in place of honey, I use less because I think it has a much sweeter taste. This dough really looked a lot like my first WW dough and was also on the dry side. It did not rise much at all, but expanded sideways, and NO spring. When I took it out of the oven, it truly looked like a brick. BUT, after it cooled, we sliced it to see how the inside was and how it tasted. The inside was not real moist, not too dry, but very crummy, and tasted AWESOME!!! It really has such a great flavor that I have to figure out what is going wrong in my kitchen so this can become our everyday sandwich bread. It is a little sweeter than I would expect a WW bread to be, but that could be the agave.
Also, our elevation is 4300 and we haven’t needed to make any high altitude adjustments for any of the other loaves.
So, I guess I would be interested to hear what type of wheat berries others are using, and what adjustments they have made. The 100% WW sandwich bread does not call for VWG; should I still add some? Since my dough is running dry, should I just increase water?
zoe said...
May 1, 2010 at 7:09 pm
Hi Melanie,
Have you tried any of the 100% WW doughs from HBin5? The addition of Vital Wheat Gluten is going to help you a lot when using freshly ground wheat and at the high altitude. You may even want to add a couple more tablespoons to the dough and increase the water slightly.
Add the the harvest grains without adding additional water will make for a dry dough. You will either want to soak them first or add a bit more water to your dough.
The agave is a fine substitute for honey in our recipes.
Let me know if any of this helps! Thanks, Zoë
Louisa said...
June 10, 2010 at 8:42 am
If you’re working on flatbreads from around the world, please include Totopos from the Isthmus of Tehuantepec (Oaxaca, Mexico – the town of Juchitan, perhaps) These are corn based, flat, fat free, and wonderful. My father-in-law wraps up a suitcase size full of them whenever he visits from Mexico and passes them out to the syblings who fight over them, then attempt to hide them from the rest of the family. They last forever and are simply reheated to their crispiness when ready to consume. I don’t know where my husband hid the last ones, but he’s snuck a few out as a treat for over a year now.
jeff said...
June 10, 2010 at 11:34 am
Louisa: You’re giving me the travel bug!
Carol LeBoeuf said...
June 18, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Since I grind my wheat using hi-protein wheat berries, do I still need to add vital wheat gluten?
zoe said...
June 18, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Hi Carol,
Yes, in order to be able to store the whole grain doughs for more than 2-3 days you have to boost the VWG or the breads will be much too dense.
Thanks, Zoe
Sandee said...
July 9, 2010 at 11:22 am
I love your Healthy Bread cookbook. I do have a question. On page 109 there is a recipe for Craccked Wheat Bread. The recipe calls for 4 cups of white whole wheat flour and 2 cups of unbleached all purpose flour. However, in your intro to the recipe, you note” “By blending crunchy cracked wheat with white whole wheat and traditional whole wheat…”. So, am I supposed to be using unbleached all-purpose flour or whole wheat flour? Help!
Many thanks,
Sandee
jeff said...
July 10, 2010 at 5:56 am
Sandee: Sorry about that– we dropped the mixture of WWW and WW and went with all WWW. Jeff
Joan said...
July 13, 2010 at 7:09 pm
I am enjoying experimenting with recipes. Tried first loaves from video while waiting for book to arrive. Great success as far as the look and taste test goes, but it was probably good that I dont get stressed by differences. The last of the dough from the fridge was really wet on the bottom. I just worked it together a bit before flouring and shaping. I would encourage everyone to not get stressed by anything that seems different to what you expected. Just adjust a bit next time.
And as for rreally exact measures – well I now realise that our Aussie Tablespoon is four teaspoons (20ml) whereas US Tablespoon is nearer to three teaspoons.
Also the flour I usually use is wholemeal and looks more like the consistency of the organic fresh-ground whole wheat in your picture. It doesnt say if it is bleached or not, but hopefully it is not
We still loved the result.
We dont use white flour much in our house as it is not as good for my mildly diabetic husband. I go for anything that might be a bit lower GI. Better for me too of course.
It is winter here so it is a good time of year to have the oven on baking and that makes it enjoyable too.
We travel the outback when we can and often use a caste iron camp oven/dutch oven for cooking over the open fire with coals on top and underneath and I am looking forward to trying the recipes in the outdoors. Will eventually report back on the camp oven cooking.
zoe said...
July 13, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Hi Joan,
Thank you for the note, we are thrilled that you are giving the recipes a try. You are right, the US tablespoon is equal to 3 teaspoons.
Are you using the recipes from Healthy Bread in Five? If so, can you find the vital wheat gluten?
Thanks, Zoë
Ramona said...
November 11, 2009 at 12:35 pm
I am so excited! I just bought both of your books (waiting on them to come in the mail). I grind my own wheat and I have been wondering how your recipes will work. So today you post the first one with success! I can’t wait for the others!