Biff Bueffel said...
January 18, 2008 at 7:49 pm

Is the container in the lower right hand corner, which came from a restaurant supply business (?), considered airtight, if the lid is pressed down all the way around?

zoe said...
January 18, 2008 at 8:27 pm

Hi Biff, It is a cambro brand container, which is used in most pro kitchens, but available to the public as well. I think King Arthur sells them, as does a chain called storables. It comes in all sizes. The one in my picture is HUGE, big enough for 2 or 3 batches of dough.

It shuts, but doesn’t have a rubber seal on it so it isn’t airtight.

It is my favorite bucket!

Thanks, Zoe

Jennifer said...
January 19, 2008 at 8:15 am

Thanks for the info on the buckets. King Arthur is sold out (probably thanks to your book!) so I appreciate the other ideas. The rye and baguettes I made were delicious. I am looking forward to trying the brioche sometime this week.

zoe said...
January 19, 2008 at 8:18 am

Hi Jennifer,

Try the brioche dough! There are lots of recipes in the back of the book that will help you use it up in no time. It is one of the doughs that I am the happiest with. I look forward to hearing what you think!

Zoe

teresa said...
January 19, 2008 at 8:31 am

HI,
I’ve been obsessing about buckets since I started using your book on a daily basis (about 2 weeks) I finally ordered 2 6 qt from KA, but couldn’t find the 10 qt. (and I have a large family of bread eaters) Finally I found a restaurant supply place in my town that welcomed me (and all my kids) in and there I found the much searched for 12 qt. food safe bucket. I bought the square one because it fits in the fridge with less wasted space. I would definately recommend calling your local restaurant supply place.
teresa

Nancy said...
January 19, 2008 at 10:03 am

I was wondering if there was any way to use your style of making bread with a gluten free flour mix. My nephews are allergic to wheat, gluten and nut flours. We have a hard time with bread for them. Many of the breads are too dry and dense. Any ideas on how to make this work? They would absolutely be in heaven if they could eat bread with everyone else.

zoe said...
January 19, 2008 at 10:09 am

Hi Nancy,

There is good news and bad news. The good news is that Jeff and I are in the process of writing a companion book that will address gluten free breads, along with breads for other special diets.

The bad news is it may take us a while to get this all together. Please stay posted and we’ll let you know when it is ready!

Thanks, Zoe

zoe said...
January 19, 2008 at 10:10 am

Hi Teresa,

Great idea, thanks! Happy baking! Zoe

jeff said...
January 19, 2008 at 12:47 pm

Bill and Zoe: One thing about the Cambro, at least mine, is that although there’s no rubber ring and it’s technically not airtight, I find that if I click it down all around that the seal is tight enough to distort the bucket during the initial fermentation– in other words, gas pressure is building up in there to some extent. So I always keep it open a crack for the first 24 to 48 hours. Jeff

zoe said...
January 19, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Hey guys,

I suppose with my bucket being so big and the dough having ample room in there I’ve never had that happen?

Zoe

jeff said...
January 20, 2008 at 7:28 am

Zoe: I think that’s it exactly. I’m using the 6 quart Cambro, and yours pretty much can contain Lake Superior. Is that a 12 quart mark in your picture (far right)? My guess is that yours makes a pretty good seal too, but all that head-space gives room for extra gas without compressing it enough to notice. Jeff

zoe said...
January 20, 2008 at 8:30 am

Hey Jeff,

It is exactly double the size of yours and I use it for a double batch, so the mystery remains! Perhaps you got one with a tighter seal?

I’d say lake Harriet, not Superior! Although I’m gearing up for that bucket too.

Zoe

jeff said...
January 20, 2008 at 8:49 am

Zoe: Hmm, very mysterious. I think maybe Cambro’s products just vary a bit… mine seems nearly airtight. I accidentally sealed it yesterday with a very full dough-load inside and threw it in the refrigerator. When I looked this AM, the lid was puffed out and the whole thing was bulging. When I broke the seal it sounded like a firecracker! Anyway, I leave that one cracked a bit. Jeff

zoe said...
January 20, 2008 at 2:32 pm

Jeff,

You had a double batch in a 6qt container, no? That was destined to blow the top off!

Zoe

ps I liked Chris’s suggestion to put a pin prick in the lid!

Fred said...
January 20, 2008 at 4:31 pm

You can find cambro containers at restaurant supply stores like Hockenberg’s which is open to the public. I bought my containers there and they are local to the Twin Cities.

Claudia Lunder said...
January 20, 2008 at 7:13 pm

Zoe-I am so excited to try your recipes but the pizza stone I ordered from Williams Sonoma is on back order until Feb.6. Is there anyway I can bake successfully without a stone? By the way you live right across from my son and daughter -in-law- Trent and Cynthia. I would love to meet you sometime when I’m babysitting !

zoe said...
January 20, 2008 at 7:22 pm

Hi Fred,

Great tip. I’ve never been there but I will check it out! I imagine they have all sizes?

Thanks, Zoe

zoe said...
January 20, 2008 at 7:31 pm

Hi Claudia!

Trent, Cynthia and I have been trying to get together for weeks. Funny considering they are across the street! We are all too busy! I’d love to meet you.

You can certainly bake the bread without a stone, but you will not get the same crisp crust that will come from baking it on the stone. Try a batch without and compare to the one you bake with the stone.

Have you tried Cooks of Crocus Hill or Kitchen Window? They may have them?

I look forward to meeting you!

Zoe

Barbara Majewski said...
January 21, 2008 at 11:05 am

Zoe: Can you use regular salt in the recipe or does it have to be kosher salt – what is the difference?

jeff said...
January 21, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Barbara: You CAN use regular table salt instead of Kosher (which is always coarse), but table salt it’s finer so it measures slightly differently. With any fine salt, decrease the salt volume by one-quarter (use only three-quarters as much salt), since it compacts more tightly than coarse salt. Jeff

Joyce said...
January 21, 2008 at 7:39 pm

Just got your book. Fabulous breads–have tried the french boule and brioche. Made the stromboli with boule and it was splendid. I have recommended it to various friends and family. I even suggested it to my mom our favorite breadmaker who is weaker now and it is not as easy to knead a 5 loaf batch of bread anymore. She is interested. My comments on overall book though are following…

Would prefer a list of all the dough types or gathering of all together and then the recipes indexed to all the dough types that can be used. Just find it difficult to find what I want when I want and know what dough is for what recipe.

The second comment is having the removable cover. Not cool for cookbook. Curls up to much to use as page holder. Too easy to get damaged. If you remove it you lose out on the wonderful photos, etc.

These are not criticisms as the book is amazing just suggestions for future treasures to assure a more pleasurable use and duration for your books.

All in all the final products are amazing. Congratulations and Thanks for bringing some great bread back to the table.

Ann said...
January 21, 2008 at 7:50 pm

I’m really enjoying your book! In fact, it has inspired me to wax poetic. See my effort below. It won’t win any prizes for poetry, but I had fun writing it.

ODE TO BREAD

Some say that carbs make you pre-diabetic,
But a life that

zoe said...
January 21, 2008 at 8:12 pm

Hi Joyce,

Thanks for trying the bread, we are so glad you are enjoying it. Thank you for sharing it with your friends and family, in particular your bread baking mom!!!

I think your suggestions are good ones. We actually had to fight get an index at all! Can’t imagine a cookbook without one but the publisher disagreed???

The removeable cover is an issue I hadn’t considered! Very interesting idea.

Zoe

zoe said...
January 21, 2008 at 8:15 pm

Hi Ann,

I LOVE IT!!! Thank you so much!!! This is a great gift.

Zoe, and I’m feeling all glow-y!

Sheri said...
January 22, 2008 at 2:13 am

I made my first batch of the peasant bread in a 6-quart Cambro and it seemed way too big. I made my second batch in a 4-quart Cambro and it almost overflowed! I love those containers, though.

My latest loaf is delicious on the inside, but has a very hard crust. I’m having issues with my oven temp but they should be fixed tomorrow. One thing I love about this is that it’s not a huge effort to keep practicing!

One more note – you have a blurb in the book about flatbreads on the gas grill. I’ve been making pizza on the grill for many years. No stone needed, the dough goes right onto the grates. I just make sure there’s olive oil on the dough and grates.

Barbara said...
January 22, 2008 at 7:41 am

Surfas online has a whole array of dough buckets in any size you want. Lids are separate, but the price is still substantially lower than other places I’ve checked.

https://www.surfasonline.com/productlines/50.cfm

zoe said...
January 22, 2008 at 8:40 am

Hi Sheri,

The different doughs seem to rise differently, some will max out your cambro and others won’t seem to rise as much. So it is nice that you have a variety of sizes. I find that the brioche dough will rise like crazy on the first day and then will mellow out and not be as bodacious for the rest of the storing time.

Thanks for playing with the recipes and keeping us posted. It is very helpful for us to hear your feedback!

Zoe

zoe said...
January 22, 2008 at 8:41 am

Hi Barbara,

Thanks for the tip on Buckets. I’ll be visiting that website for sure!

Zoe

Barbara said...
January 22, 2008 at 9:04 am

With the 22 qt size container, Zoe, you just might succeed in fitting in both Superior AND Harriet!

Nikki said...
January 22, 2008 at 9:34 am

Hi and thank you!!! I can not stop telling people about your master recipe (my book is on the way but won’t be here for another 3 weeks so I’m going off of a newspaper article).

Anyway, do you have any tips/suggestions on using a pizza peel? I use a bunch of corn meal but the loaves seem to fight me when I try to put them on my stone. I’ve tried to copy the same movement that I see pizza makers do but to no avail.

Thanks so much,
Nikki

jeff said...
January 22, 2008 at 11:54 am

Hi Nikki:

There are two possible explanations, ether it’s something with your “sliding” technique, or it’s something with your dough. So, first have a look at the videos on our website (click on the “Videos” tab and the very first one, at the Chicago Tribune is a good one, though you need to register for the site).

If it’s not your technique, I’d ask you a couple of questions:

1. Are you using a very low protein all-purpose (Pillsbury all-purpose is under 10% protein)? Those will yield a wetter dough that is prone to stick to the peel. If you want to use a flour like that, decrease the water by a quarter-cup and see what happens.

2. Are you resting the formed loaves for a prolonged period? If so, try limiting rest time to what we specify.

3. Are you talking about pizza? Make sure that your pizza round feels un-sticky when you place it on the “cornmealed” peel. If not, dust with more flour before dropping it on the peel. Also, have all your pizza toppings prepared in advance so the dough doesn’t have to sit around and wait while you slice mushrooms etc. The shorter the time period on that pizza peel, the more likely it will slide off beautifully when the time comes.

Let us know if these don’t do the trick!

Jeff

jeff said...
January 22, 2008 at 12:01 pm

Ann:

I cannot believe that I almost missed your poem. YOU WROTE US A POEM? I feel like I need to write you a song to go with it. My cello playing will be worse than your rhyming, so don’t feel bad. Rhymes for Jeff? Deaf is about as far as I got, until I thought of “chef,” which I am not. Your poem might also work well as a rap.

What can I say, I’m speechless. Thank you.

Jeff

Ann said...
January 22, 2008 at 2:48 pm

Jeff and Zoe-

I’m so glad you got a kick out of Ode to Bread! (Jeff, going with the music theme, all I could think of to rhyme with your name was “clef”! Darn, wish I’d thought of “chef”!)T.S. Eliot it ain’t, but it sure was fun to write. As a lawyer in real life, it’s good to use the right side of my brain once in a while. I cheated a little bit with pierogi, which is more like a dumpling than a sandwich surrounded by bread, but, hey, it’s artistic license, right?

All the best and congratulations on the tremendous success of your book!

Joyce said...
January 22, 2008 at 7:43 pm

Ymmmmmmmmmmm. I just removed a Pear only coffe cake made with brioche dough. I changed it by using the Chai Spice mix instead of cinnamon. It smelled wonderful when baking and was mouthwatering to eat.

Earlier today I did the turban with raisins. Again–wonderful. Congratulations on these fabulous recipes. Look forward to another book.

zoe said...
January 22, 2008 at 7:48 pm

Hi Joyce,

Wow that pear coffee cake with the Chai spices sounds amazing.

One of our readers has made a list of all the recipes, like you had suggested earlier. If you want to check it out go to the Sunny-Side-Up Apricot Pastry post and scroll down to the comments. I’m going to edit it and post it soon!

Thanks, Zoe

Barbara said...
January 23, 2008 at 7:42 am

This is for Nikki, who was having trouble with her pizza dough sticking to the peel. This used to drive me crazy, and sometimes it would provoke such kitchen tantrums that my kids would see me preparing ingredients, and whisper nervously to my husband, “She’s not making pizza again, is she?” I finally gave up and now use parchment paper between the dough and the peel; the dough slides onto the stone like a dream. I remove the paper midway through baking.

Joyce said...
January 24, 2008 at 12:58 pm

Anyone who hasn’t tried the chai spices should. They are a wonderful mellow blend. I have already compiled a table with page numbers, doughs and breads from each similar to the one you pointed out. If you have an e-mail and can figure out how to post it, I have it in a Word table. Another recipe and another hit. I am having so much fun. Oh course my hubby is threatening to shut down oven due to his lack of discipline. He is afraid he may have to remodel his wardrobe if I keep baking.

Brenda said...
January 24, 2008 at 1:46 pm

I have a question about the Oat Flour bread on page 104. I just mixed up half a batch, and it is quite runny…more the consistency of cornbread batter. I was wondering if the water should be 3 cups instead of 3 1/4. I had the same problem with the Bran Enriched White Bread recipe on page 72 when I mixed it up. I really want my bread to have some extra fiber in it, if I am going to eat bread. When I mixed the Bran Enriched, I ended up adding extra flour and then it was too hard on the crust when I cooked it.
I live in the south, and even though it is winter, I wonder if I need to adjust the recipe for the humidity down here.
I have yet to try the Master Recipe, so I cannot tell you how than one worked.
Thanks.

jeff said...
January 24, 2008 at 2:53 pm

Brenda: Assuming you don’t change anything else, yes, you should decrease the water in the oat flour bread recipe to 3 cups, and the bran-enriched white to 2 3/4. But let’s try to figure out why you’re getting such a wet result. Two things to consider:

1. Are you using a bleached flour? Bleaching depletes protein and protein absorbs water. If so, switch to unbleached all-purpose.

2. Are you using a very soft all-purpose (like Pillsbury) with protein less than 10%? If so, switch to something like Gold Medal Unbleached All Purpose, or any other unbleached all-purpose with protein level above 10%.

If neither of these are the explanation, just decrease the water by about a quarter-cup and try again. If you make it too dry, it won’t store well, so that’s the balance you have to do.

Humidity the explanation? Could be, if it’s not one of the above.

Was the stuff so wet that it would not hold its shape as a freeform loaf? If it does hold it’s shape, well, you might just be experiencing the surprise of our method, which is based on very wet dough. Have a look at the picture in Zoe’s post above… that’s how wet it’s supposed to be.

Jeff

Brenda said...
January 24, 2008 at 3:05 pm

Jeff, Thanks for your comments. I believe I am going to have to throw this batch out because it is definitely too wet. It is just slightly heavier than cake batter, and I don’t think I can make any loaf out of it. But, I may try throwing it in a loaf pan and see what happens.
I am using unbleached all-purpose flour. But, it is not a popular brand with a wet feel to it, anyway. I intended to change to King Arthur, but was trying to not waste what I had and use it up first. Oh, well, so much for that idea!
Where do you find out about protein levels, anyway? And what does that mean? Is that on the bag and I just never noticed? I almost always take my flour home and transfer it to a tupperware container, so probably never bothered to look for that.

Cheryl said...
January 24, 2008 at 3:22 pm

I am a fan of America’s Test Kitchen and they did a version of no knead bread. The chef started with a recipe he got out of the NY Times a couple of years ago but was unhappy with. One of the things he did to improve the flavor was to use beer and vinegar as part of the liquid to get a sour dough starter taste to the bread. Have you tried this?

zoe said...
January 24, 2008 at 3:24 pm

Hi Brenda,

All is not lost yet! You can just add more flour to your already made dough.

The protein/gluten content will change how much the flour absorbs water. So a low protein flour will be kind of pasty and a high protein flour will suck all the water and feel tight and dry. The gluten is what gives bread it elasticity and chewiness.

Some brands have the protein content right on the bag, others it takes some investigating. The web is a great resource for that. If you go to the website of the brand you use, it may be there?

Thanks and keep us posted!

Zoe

Brenda said...
January 24, 2008 at 3:33 pm

Thanks, Zoe. I’ll let you guys know if I am able to salvage the dough.

jeff said...
January 24, 2008 at 3:49 pm

Cheryl: We haven’t tried the CI method with our stuff, but we mean too. We’re guessing that the beer might give some nice flavor notes, but we’re a little worried that the acid in the vinegar might break down gluten a little more than we need, especially at the end of our batches’ lifespans. Jeff

Cheryl said...
January 24, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Their receipe was about 1/2 the size of the master and a lot dryer (3 c flour to 1 c liquid) and they put in 1 tbsp of white vinegar and 1/4 c of the beer. They used a mild flavored lager so it wouldn’t get a beery flavor. I might just have to try adding some beer next time. We are fans of sourdough. Maybe I’ll try just the 1/4 cup and see how it tastes.

Barb said...
January 25, 2008 at 8:26 am

I just discovered this bread making method via the Chicago Tribune and have ordered the book…can’t wait to get it. I have only made one batch, the other is in the refrigerator now. I’d like to respond to a couple of other comments from previous days….for Claudia who’s waiting for a pizza stone from Williams Sonoma…I’ve purchased a couple of stones at Target (round) and Bed,Bath and Beyond (square) for a very reasonable price. For Nikki and others who have trouble sliding their pizzas off the peel onto the stone. What I’ve been doing for awhile is sliding an untopped pizza dough onto the stone for just 2-3 minutes. It “sets up” enough to remove from the oven…put toppings on and then it doesn’t fold over onto itself when you’re trying to put it back onto the stone. This is such a fun method for making bread.

zoe said...
January 25, 2008 at 11:35 am

Hi Barb,

I’m so glad you are enjoying the recipe and look forward to hearing what you bake from the book.

Thanks for all the tips about the baking stone and pizza!!!

Zoe

Phi said...
January 26, 2008 at 2:15 am

Cheryl,
I’ve been baking the no knead bread from Cooks Illustrated for the past 2 months and am really impressed. They improved the original recipe by adding a short knead and also by raising the dough on a parchment hammock that gets put into the pan with the dough. The crust is impressive. However, now that I have my copy of Artisan Bread I’ve put the CI recipe aside! Brioche this weekend.

Regarding the dough sticking to the peel, I use stone ground cornmeal and it does the ball-bearing trick very well.

jeff said...
January 26, 2008 at 6:20 am

Thanks Phi! One other thing Cheryl, if you use a quarter-cup of beer, better decrease the water by that amount or you’ll have too-wet dough.

Jeff

zoe said...
January 26, 2008 at 6:38 am

Hi Phi,

I look froward to hearing about your brioche! Please come back and let us know how it goes and what you made with it.

Zoe

MARILYN INCAUDO said...
January 26, 2008 at 7:00 am

The Chicago Tribune had an article on your bread in the Food Section and I am hooked!!! My husband and I tried the bread and we just love it. I tried making Artesian bread once before and gave up. I have told all my friends about the recipe in the Tribune and made copies for them. I bought your book, a great investment and I am excited about trying different recipes. I have one question for you, in the Master Recipe, you specifiy to scoop and sweep the flour. Does this apply to all the recipes? I just made a batch of deli style rye and used the scoop and sweep method and am wondering if I should have, the dough doesn’t seem as wet as the Master Dough did when I made it.

jeff said...
January 26, 2008 at 8:22 am

Marilyn: Thanks for your enthusiasm!

Scoop and sweep applies to all the recipes. We sweated over that rye recipe. The typical rye flour available in supermarkets is a very high-bran product, and absorbs a lot of water. So, when first mixed, our rye dough will seem drier than the Master Boule. But rye has certain non-gluten proteins that, over the course of dough storage in the refrigerator, create a rather wet and sticky effect. You’ll see what we mean. On the other hand, if you’re using up your dough quickly and you’re finding the result with the rye to be a bit dry, increase the water by 1/8 or even 1/4 cup and see what you think.

Let us know!

Jeff

Traci said...
January 27, 2008 at 11:39 am

When storing dough in the refrigerator it gets smaller each day. The first loaf is fine but the dough shrinks and subequent loaves rise less if at all and become gummy. What am I doing wrong?

Cynthia Townley Ewer said...
January 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm

I’m kicking the tires with this new method, and have a question about home-ground whole wheat flour.

Will using a finely-ground hard red wheat flour (added as recommended in the recipes) have any unusual effects? I use the “pastry flour” setting of my grain mill to grind this very fine whole-wheat flour and use it successfully in traditional bread methods.

Thanks for weighing in!

Cynthia Townley Ewer
Author, “Houseworks: Cut Your Clutter, Speed Your Cleaning and Calm the Chaos”
Editor, OrganizedHome.com

Roxi said...
January 27, 2008 at 3:44 pm

Hi Jeff and Zoe–

I just wanted to let you know that I made the Sticky Pecan Caramel Rolls this weekend, and they were a huge hit! This was my first attempt at making any kind of caramel rolls in my life, and I had several people comment that they were “as good as grandma’s!” I did have some trouble with the caramel bubbling over the edge of the baking dish, so next time I might use a cookie sheet underneath to catch any wayward caramel.

I have been reading through a number of recipes planning out my next experiment, and I have a quick question about the Bran-Enriched White Bread recipe. (pg. 72) I notice the ingredient list calls for a cornstarch wash, but the directions don’t make any reference to this later. Rather than sprinkling the loaf with flour in step 7, should I use the cornstarch wash instead?

As a sidenote, I was excited to see your pictures of containers that you use. I think I have the exact same ones with the blue lid that I got at Cub Foods recently! They work great!

Thanks so much! Love the book!

Roxi

Dave Mackmiller said...
January 27, 2008 at 7:00 pm

LOVE the book! I’ve recommended it to so many people that I should get a commission!

Anyway, I have a question. I made the bagels this morning. The recipe called for 20 minutes at 400 degrees. After 20 minutes, they weren’t even close to done. I had to go another 15 minutes before they were brown. They were OK, but I decided to make another batch at 450. After about 22 minutes they were perfect. So, my question is: Is that a type in the recipe? Shouldn’t it be 450, like all of the other recipes?

BTW, I use an oven thermometer and have so far made about 25 pounds of bread with great success.

Dave

Terry Anderson-Weir said...
January 27, 2008 at 7:04 pm

Hi,
I made up a match of your first recipe and put it in the refrigerator. All looked great and I went out of town for the weekend and when I came back my husband noticed that the lid wasn’t tight on my bucket and decided to put the lid on tight! Oh my! So when I went to bake my very first batch of bread I discovered the lid was sealed tight and the dough had flatten out. My question is do I need to throw out this first batch and start all over or can I save this batch? Will the dough raise again, or did we kill the yeast?
Thanks Terry

jeff said...
January 27, 2008 at 8:17 pm

I’m going to try to answer all four of the last questions in this one post, so here goes:

Traci: Is there a chance that you’re mixing your dough too dry? That’s what it sounds like; traditionally-hydrated doughs (ie., drier than ours) cannot be stored for longer than a day or two. After that, you see progressively less rise– and that’s what you’re getting. Our stuff should look wet, like in Zoe’s picture above or the black and white photo on page 28 of our book. One explanation of inadequate hydration would be if you’re using a high-protein flour, or adding in lots of whole grains without compensating with extra water. Any of these could be explanations. Please keep us posted… your experience has not been typical with our readers so something is up.

Are you writing from Europe, where flours are formulated differently? If so, we’ll have to get to the bottom of your protein percentage. The basic recipe was tested with U.S. white unbleached all-purpose, with a protein percentage ranging from 10% to 11.5%.

Cynthia: Using “hard” 100% whole wheat flour will change the water requirement, since “hard” flour means “high-protein,” and bran absorbs flour as well. Basically, you’ll need more water because protein absorbs (chemically binds) water. Depending on the characteristics of your home-ground flour, that might mean a quarter to one-half cup of extra water, but go slow in increasing or it may get soupy. That’s my best guess.

Then there’s the whole wheat issue. We find that a complete substitution is quite nicely accomplished, but you need some shortening, and for most people, some sweetener as well. See our 100% whole wheat recipe on page 76 of the book.

Terry: Don’t throw it out!! The gas just blew the top off, it’s no big deal. The dough always flattens out by the first 12 to 24 hours. It’s ready to use. Let us know how you make out.

Hey Zoe, did I miss anything?

Jeff

jeff said...
January 27, 2008 at 8:40 pm

Dave: Sorry I missed you. Hey, you’re asking for a commission without even writing a poem for us (see Ann’s post above)? I have to think long and hard about this.

Not quite so hard about the bagels. I’m pretty sure 400 degrees was correct (Zoe, can you weigh in as well?). Any chance you’re running cool in the oven (most are)? Can you check with a reliable oven thermometer? You don’t need to spend a fortune to get a decent one.

Bottom line: If you like the result at 450, stay with it? Every time someone tells me they stopped buying a bland supermarket product, I become very, very happy. Who cares what the oven dial says!

Thanks for trying the recipes and boosting our book to your friends, we really appreciate it.

Jeff

jeff said...
January 27, 2008 at 8:49 pm

Traci:

Any chance you are baking at high altitude? Someone else at high altitude is having exactly your experience… the solution is to use less yeast (a half tablespoon or less), and take the time needed for a slow rise.

Are you in Banff? Higher? La Paz?

Jeff

Bill said...
January 27, 2008 at 9:02 pm

OK. I feel REALLY dumb, but thought I’d share my experience. I bought your book after reading Mark Bittman’s piece about it in the NY Times.

I made the really silly mistake of using a Pyrex dish for the “water bath”. It was late and I wasn’t thinking. I guess you know what happened next.

The good news? No injuries. And I have some glass-free dough in the fridge I can use tomorrow for another try.

The bad news? A glass-embedded loaf and the worst collection of shattered glass in an oven you’ve ever seen. I almost wanted to toss the oven away

I hope I’m the only one to have made this mistake. I felt really silly. I’ll use a metal broiler pan tomorrow.

zoe said...
January 28, 2008 at 8:42 am

Hi Traci,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I had a feeling when I saw your comment that you were dealing with high altitudes. This is something us Minnesotans don’t have to deal with!!! But, I’ve looked into it for several other readers and this is what I have figured out.

It turns out there is a big difference if you live above 5,000 feet in how the yeast behaves. It wants to rise really quickly, hence your initial rise, but then it collapses because there isn’t enough structure to support it. In other words you might try things that inhibit it from rising so fast and add more structure to the dough.

Here are a couple things to try:

Decrease the yeast to 1 tablespoon, instead of 1 1/2 tablespoons.

Replace the all-purpose flour with Bread flour, which has more gluten. This may cause your dough to be drier, so you may end up adding a little more water. Whole wheat flour has very little gluten and should be mixed with bread flour or it won’t rise well. You can also try adding vital wheat gluten.

Increase the salt to inhibit the yeast from growing too fast. If you find this to be too salty then skip it!

The last thing is to let the dough rise slower and longer before baking because you’ve reduced the yeast. One thing I’ve been experimenting with is forming the loaf and allowing it to rise over night in your refrigerator. Just shape it into the boule, put it on a piece of parchment paper and cover it with plastic. In the morning preheat your oven, with the stone on the middle rack, dust the dough with flour, slash and slide the cold dough into the preheated oven. It may not seem as though it has risen much, mine looked like it spread out bt then in the oven it had great rise.

Try that and let me know what happens! If this doesn’t work we will try something else.

Thanks for trying the bread and good luck!!!

Zoe

zoe said...
January 28, 2008 at 8:52 am

Hi Roxi,

Yes, I got mine at Cub as well!!! They are great buckets but be sure not to close them all the way or you will trap too much of the gas from the yeast. I just leave mine open a crack!

Thanks, Zoe

zoe said...
January 28, 2008 at 8:55 am

Hi Dave,

I had one other person say this about her bagels and she too started baking them at 450 with great results!

We tested them at 400 degrees, but as we have found out recently every oven is SOOO different. So 450 it is for your oven!

Thanks, Zoe

zoe said...
January 28, 2008 at 8:58 am

Hi Bill,

Oh no!!! I’m sorry to hear this. I’m sure your not the only one. One of my girlfriends just recently put a roasting pan with a COLD chicken on the door of her HOT oven and the window cracked.

This will also happen if you put a cold baking stone in a hot oven.

Thank you for sharing this story, you will no doubt save a lot of people from sharing in this misery!!!!

Zoe

Robyn said...
January 28, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Thanks a million to Bill for helping to avert a kitchen disaster! I’ll be baking my first loaf tonight and was contemplating using a glass pan for the steam, since my broiler pan seems to have flown the coop. I will be using a metal pan, possibly my roasting pan.

Jennifer Dahl said...
January 29, 2008 at 10:15 am

I was given your book for Christmas, and I sat down to read it before trying anything. I said to my husband– if this works, it’s revolutionary! (I hadn’t noticed the subtitle on the jacket yet!) I tried the basic master recipe and oh, my! My life is transformed! I have tried many different bread making techniques, and I may never go back to them. I am telling the world about this book! (At least a dozen, thus far!)

zoe said...
January 29, 2008 at 11:20 am

Hi Jennifer,

Thank you so much for trying the recipes, I’m so glad you are enjoying them!

Thanks too for spreading the word to your friends!!

Zoe

Cathy said...
January 30, 2008 at 12:19 pm

Hi,

I was wondering if I can use a large stainless steel bowl to store the bread in. I’m not crazy about using plastic. It has a lid that I do not think is airtight.

thanks.

zoe said...
January 30, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Hi Cathy,

Yes, you can use stainless steel, glass or ceramic bowls. Just make sure you have enough room for the dough to rise (6 qts) and that you cover the dough.

Thanks!

Zoe

jeff said...
January 30, 2008 at 3:28 pm

Cathy: Make sure that the lid is NOT completely airtight, whatever you use.

Jeff

Peggy said...
January 30, 2008 at 3:41 pm

Hi:
I have 2 questions. When I cloak, I have a hard time getting it smooth, and it tends to look “shaggy” Is this critical? Also, When I was cloaking I felt a hard piece of dough and thought it might be drying out in the fridge. Is there a possibility the dough was to cold? Thanks

Cathy said...
January 30, 2008 at 5:15 pm

I am going to start right now. I am Italian and cannot get the bread I am used to from my childhood. The bread on the cover looks so delicious. Thanks for you research. I’ll try to let you know how I do.

Mary Beth said...
January 30, 2008 at 7:32 pm

I’ve made two loaves so far and they’ve both been very good. I found a great container at Target. The brand was Reynolds Casuals and it is a 25 cup container, so just over six quarts and it has a small gasket in the lid that I leave open. I think the original intention was to let steam out of the container when you’re microwaving, but it has worked really well to store my dough. It’s the right size, and keeps the dough covered while still letting the gas escape.

Thanks for writing such a wonderful book, I’m really looking forward to making the brioche this weekend. We really enjoy good bread, I like baking, but never really got into breadmaking, kneading, etc… and with a full time job and a toddler in the house I don’t have a lot of free time, but your book makes it easy to have fabulous bread.

jeff said...
January 30, 2008 at 8:05 pm

Mary Beth:
Thanks for the great bucket suggestion, wow, a valve(basically). Thanks for your enthusiasm, so glad the recipes are working well for you.

Jeff

zoe said...
January 30, 2008 at 8:52 pm

Hi Mary Beth,

This is a very exciting discovery indeed! I will go to Target tomorrow.

Let me know how you like the brioche, it is one of my favorites!!!

Thanks for the nice feedback.

Zoe

Mary Beth said...
February 2, 2008 at 7:30 am

OK you guys, that brioche is indescribably delicious. I only made a half batch of dough as I was constrained by container size and refrigerator space, and now, I’m regretting that decision. I have to admit that I really had my doubts since the dough seemed so wet and sticky I didn’t feel like I got a good cloak, and I actually think I underbaked it a little. Despite all that, it was so delicious and tender. We couldn’t even wait to let it cool since the house smelled so good and we were really hungry.

zoe said...
February 2, 2008 at 10:03 am

Hi Mary Beth,

I’m so glad you liked it!!!! Yeah, just wait until you make it into caramel rolls or the danish. You’ll need bigger buckets!

Thanks, Zoe

Barbara said...
February 3, 2008 at 7:40 pm

I love, love love your book. I’ve been baking the bread since I saw the recipe in the NY Times. The book was on back order for many weeks at our local book stores.

I had never made a yeast bread before this – always feared it. I still stare at each of my beautiful crusty boules and can’t believe I made it. In March some French friends will be staying at my house and I can’t wait to bake if for them.

Tonight I tried to make the pizza from the basic boule refrigerated dough. It was very difficult to roll or hand shape the dough, it was so sticky. I managed to make one, but the second one never made its way into the oven – it was way too wet and sticky to handle even after adding flour to the dough or the board.

Is there any hope?

Thanks, much.

jeff said...
February 3, 2008 at 9:08 pm

Hi Barbara:

Of course there’s hope! Just use lots of white flour on your rolling-out surface. Keep adding as you roll and turn over; if necessary, working it in by “cloaking,” though I’m finding that the less cloaking you do with pizza, the better. If you do less cloaking, the dough doesn’t “resist” your rolling action and is easier to spread out.

If my approach doesn’t work, you just need to start with a slightly drier dough. Try adding a quarter cup more flour and see how it works.

Jeff

Ann said...
February 7, 2008 at 12:10 am

Think I am having some trouble with the cloaking part. My attempts so far have all turned out as rather small loaves – and yes I do need to increase the fridge to oven time span. But based on a previous post I can’t find now, I think I need a cloaking refresher.

My last attempt was quite interesting – came home from a residency and pulled out the dough, cloaked it, and set it in the slightly warmed oven. Fell asleep, woke up 9 hours later and there was no way I was staying up to bake. Got up 3 hours later and turned on the oven. The loaf had risen more than before but when I went to slash it, found it had about an 1/8″ crust on it and under the crust it had fallen. Ok, so with nothing to lose, I baked it. It got very crisp crusted and inside was quite nice & holey. Actually not bad for the flop I expected. Was able to pull out some of the center to eat and it was good. Won’t be trying another loaf when I’m exhausted again! Or set the alarm…

Thanks for the cloaking refresher.

jeff said...
February 7, 2008 at 6:09 am

Ann: for the best cloaking refresher, click on “Videos” on this website and view either the Minneapolis Star Tribune, or the Chicago Tribune video, I can’t remember which one has more of a closeup of what your hands do when you cloak. Just use lots of flour (without incorporating it in), and gently pull the top around to the bottom, just until it seems to “come alive.” This is actually a traditional baking technique used with kneaded bread too, but it works as a great substitute for kneading with long-fermented wet dough.

Jeff

Richard said...
February 7, 2008 at 7:45 am

Great book: I have had good success with three batches using 3 to 5 hours initial rise before refrigerating dough. Last night I made a batch but accidentally left it out at room temperature (68F)overnight for 12 hours. Dough looked ok so I placed it in the refrigerator anyway. Any concerns about Is this batch a bust? Anyway to evaluate it before baking?

Richard

Barb said...
February 7, 2008 at 8:00 am

Hi everyone…I’ve been reading some of the comments from folks who have had trouble transferring their dough to the stone. I discovered a device called a “SuperPeel” that is a very nicely made wooden peel with a canvas type “conveyor belt” contraption that so easily transfers breads and pizzas onto your stone. I found it online at superpeel.com. Check it out!! So far, it has worked beautifully for me without any foldover disasters.

zoe said...
February 7, 2008 at 9:18 am

Hi Richard,

This has happened to me on several occasions. Mix the batch up and fall asleep with it still on the counter. It doesn’t seem to make any difference at all. I just put it in the refrigerator in the morning and carry on as if nothing had happened.

Let me know how the bread comes out, it should be just fine!

Thanks, Zoë

zoe said...
February 7, 2008 at 9:19 am

Hi Barb,

This sounds incredible. Thanks for the tip!

Zoë

Marvyl Grinney said...
February 9, 2008 at 11:33 am

I made my first batch of the master recipe last Sunday. We’ve had fresh, wonderful bread every day. The downside is we love it so much we eat the whole loaf in a day and I’m trying to lose weight before a Hawaii trip…I guess I’ll have to work out more!! I’ve purchased books for friends and my daughter. It’s a great gift. Thank you so much.

zoe said...
February 9, 2008 at 1:29 pm

Hi Marvyl,

We have often said that we should have included a gym membership with the book.

I’m willing to be your personal chef and trainer in Hawaii!!!

Have a great trip and enjoy all the bread.

Thanks for sharing the book with so many of your loved ones!

Zoë

jeff said...
February 9, 2008 at 4:54 pm

Marvyl: Greetings from Florida, where I am absorbing heat and humidity like a greedy sponge… do you need a personal physician in Hawaii? Jeff

Nikki said...
February 13, 2008 at 6:57 am

From my comment on 1/22 and your response….

I (along with 2 friends I ordered for also):) received my book – hooray – it only took 4.5 weeks! But it’s here and I can’t wait to get started.

Thank you Jeff and others, for your response about the pizza peel. I am getting so much better at it. Now that I’ll have a chance to try the pizza recipes I’m glad to have your advice about not letting it sit for too long.

Take care,
Nikki

Rosemary C said...
February 16, 2008 at 9:53 am

I had a piece of dough that has been in my container for just a week. I made a loaf today and it rose well and tasted great, but there were gray areas in the bread. What’s with that? I had re-mixed the dough in the same container without washing and I did notice that is seemed a little funky. We are,however, still alive after eating the bread.

zoe said...
February 16, 2008 at 10:07 pm

Hi Rosemary,

You are safe. This happens sometimes as the dough ages and the yeast dies off. There is nothing harmful or bad going on, just the natural progression of the yeast. Make sure your lid isn’t on too tight so that the gas can escape. I find this prevents some of this discoloring from happening.

If it is just a small amount left in the bucket, you may want to treat it like a starter next time and thoroughly mix it into the next batch of dough.

Thanks, Zoë

Amy said...
February 20, 2008 at 6:50 pm

I just heard about your book, and have ordered it. Can’t wait till it comes. Speaking of buckets…would an old ice cream bucket work? At least until I come up with something better?

jeff said...
February 20, 2008 at 6:54 pm

Amy: So long as it’s food-grade (food-safe) and has a lid that can be cracked open a little at the beginning of the rising process, it will work. Also, it needs to be large enough (5 quarts for the standard recipe). Jeff

Ellen Smith-Erb said...
February 22, 2008 at 9:03 pm

I am loving your book that I received from my husband as a Valentine gift! And he had a great idea for the five quart bucket – the Tupperware cake container that I never use- I just turn it upside down and put the “lid” on loosely. It does take up a lot of room in the fridge, but it works!

zoe said...
February 22, 2008 at 10:01 pm

Hi Ellen,

What a wonderful valentine’s gift and your husband will get the gift of fresh bread!

I love your bucket idea!

Thanks, Zoë

Lisa said...
February 25, 2008 at 7:41 am

Bread buckets – I also been using the tops of my Rubbermaid/Tupperware cake keepers. For covering I use the plastic shower caps – the ones you get at hotels.

jeff said...
February 25, 2008 at 9:48 am

I think King Arthur actually sells a shower cap-like item but your way is much cheaper!

zoe said...
February 25, 2008 at 9:48 am

Hi Lisa,

I love the shower cap idea! Jeff and I are about to go on a book tour and I will start to collect the shower caps from the hotels.

Thanks for the great idea! You should submit that to Fine cooking magazine. They have a prize for the best kitchen idea.

Zoë

Lisa said...
February 26, 2008 at 6:46 am

Thanks – I just might do that! I am always looking for ways to recycle – I often wonder if anyone really uses those shower caps. I have used them for years to cover salads etc. at outside parties. I live near lots of farms and the flies can be numerous! Trick is if you want them to put out a new one you have to take the one that is there – if staying multiple days! The only thing I notice is that there is condensation on the top when I open to remove a hunk of dough so I just flip it over

Peter said...
March 21, 2008 at 1:03 pm

Hi folks! I was working at Magers & Quinn a few months back when you did your demo there, and I have been hooked on the book ever since. I have the same refrigerator space issues that several folks wrote about, but I found that a cheap 6-quart Rubbermaid pitcher from Target works really well as a bucket. It is tall and relatively thin, fits in the bottom shelf, and I simply leave the hole that would usually be used for pouring with its top slightly open. I’ve had no problems with under-rising or accidental sealing. Thanks again for your amazing visit to our store, and for bringing bread-baking back into my life.

jeff said...
March 21, 2008 at 1:25 pm

Peter:
Thanks for coming to our event, that was a fun evening. Glad you’re having fun with our book.

Cheap is a good way to go, with any of these food-grade plastic containers, so thanks for the tip. Jeff

Lori Ann said...
March 22, 2008 at 5:16 pm

Is this link dead or can I just not access it? I’ve tried several different days.

jeff said...
March 23, 2008 at 7:20 am

Lori, we’re here, are you getting my message now? Jeff

Shari said...
March 26, 2008 at 2:55 pm

GREAT BUCKET TIP
I bought a new Sterilite shoe box with the half-moon locking lid handles (think gas escape hatches). It is 5.7 liters, and I have some rye dough working in it right now. It is exactly the right size for my fridge with zero wasted space inside the bucket. I wrote to Sterilite, and they said that the plastic in the shoebox is exactly the same as their food storage items, so I am cool with it being a shoe box. And, the price was right, about $4, might be less at a Big Chain store.

jeff said...
March 26, 2008 at 9:25 pm

Shari: My standard advice would be not to use anything unless it’s labeled and sold as “food grade.” Just being very cautious; you never know who you talked with and what their level of understanding was. Jeff

Shari said...
March 28, 2008 at 5:17 am

what sterilite said:
snip…Our products, including #1882, are made of polypropylene plastic, which is a food safe material. The polypropylene used in our containers meets FDA requirements in the Code of Federal Regulations for all food contact excluding actual cooking applications. We do not use Latex, Teflon, or other stain resistant chemicals in our manufacturing process…snip

zoe said...
March 28, 2008 at 5:26 am

Hi Shari,

Thanks for looking into this! Very interesting.

Zoë

Patti said...
April 3, 2008 at 7:39 am

I found an excellent source for large food safe containers/buckets! 6 quart size is only $3.61.

http://uspfoodcontainers.notlong.com

I ordered 2 each of the 6 and 8 quart buckets and the lids. The lids are sold separately, but the 6 and 8 qt ones use the same size. Great for storing flour too!

So if you are really into this method of breadmaking you can order quantity and save — ha!

Patti

jeff said...
April 3, 2008 at 1:12 pm

Thanks Patti! That’s a pretty cheap option but we can’t endorse anything here, especially for a vendor we’ve never used. As always, be certain that it’s food-safe, not just “NSF” or “FDA” certified. The website is a little ambiguous. Jeff

Elise said...
April 12, 2008 at 5:12 am

Hello,
I have an equipment question for you, I can’t find the right place to post it. Is there a brand of loaf pans that you recommend using? I have a couple of old nonstick ones banging around, but they don’t do so well these days and I want to replace them before baking a loaf bread.

Thank you, and thank you for the wonderful book.

Elise

zoe said...
April 12, 2008 at 4:34 pm

Hi Elise,

I have every type of loaf pan imaginable and as long as they are non-stick they work well.

One thing to keep in mind is the color of the pan. Lighter pans will result in a lighter crust and may actually take longer to bake. The opposite is true of a darker pan.

The other difference is the thickness of the metal and how well they conduct heat. The thicker, and probably more costly pans conduct heat slightly better and may improve baking. But, this is a minimal difference and not necessarily worth the extra cost?

I recently bought mini loaf pans at my local grocery store for just $4 each and they work great. I think they are called bakers secret? I’ll double check.

Thanks! Zoë

Amy said...
April 14, 2008 at 1:07 pm

Hi!
This is my first try making bread ever. I need help trouble-shooting.

I’ve made several loaves which seemed to work fine. However, I went to make one today, Day 7, and the top of the dough was gray and smelled slightly sour. Underneath was a light tan as it was originally. I did look at the 5 days of photos on your website and mine was definitely the wrong color and kind of leathery. I ‘m going to toss everything- a batch and a half- and I’m so bummed.

I have 2 likely suspects. My best guess is my container- a 6 qt tupperware-like rectangle from Target. It’s not airtight, but it is snug. I bought 2 and made a single batch in each one. My second thought was that I used spelt flour, which is what I had at the time.

If it is the container, will a pin-hole/nail-hole in the top do the trick? My fridge gets full and I don’t want a loose lid.

Appreciate your help.
Amy

jeff said...
April 14, 2008 at 6:07 pm

Amy: First off, so sorry you had to throw out so much dough. I’m afraid we didn’t do a great job letting people know what to expect as the dough ages. What you saw at day 7 is pretty much what we expect, and it makes a nice loaf. I actually prefer these fully-aged ones. The grayish color and sour aroma are normal; they’re not mold. It’s not your container and it won’t matter whether or not you make a pinhole; that’s the way it gets at 7 days.

That said, you may prefer the less-aged stuff–it all depends on how much you like sourdough. Jeff

Amy said...
April 15, 2008 at 7:09 pm

Jeff,
Thank you so much for telling me! I was so afraid that I had almost food-poisoned my family. From now on, I’ll probably only make a single batch per kind of dough so I can go through it more quickly. If I do stir the gray top layer in, will I get a nice sour-dough kind of thing? I do like sour-dough.
Thanks much. I’ll try again.
Amy

zoe said...
April 15, 2008 at 8:22 pm

Hi Amy,

Yes, you are not the first person to be thrown off by the discoloration of the dough. But not to worry. If you just mix that “old” dough into your fresh batch you will jump start the sour dough characteristics in the next batch. We find it is better with age and like to keep that going in the new batch.

I do find that if you allow the gases to escape from the bucket you are less likely to have the graying of the dough.

Thanks, Zoë

[the wynk] | dough bucket said...
April 24, 2008 at 9:46 pm

I didn’t really have any suitable containers, nor did I know where to get some of the cool buckets that Zoe has in her collection. So, I started out using a giant glass mixing bowl covered in plastic wrap.

pat said...
April 25, 2008 at 8:58 am

my bread does not come out with a flat bottom. It seems to buff up and create a rounded bottom which is not all that crisp…it still tastes great but looks a bit funny. I call is semi-ball bread. what am I doing wrong?

zoe said...
April 25, 2008 at 10:58 am

Hi Pat,

The time this happened to me was when I didn’t let the dough rest long enough before baking. If your loaf is larger than 1# or your kitchen is at all cool you may need to let the dough rest longer.

Also make sure that you are slashing the dough deep enough so that it can open up nicely on the top without pulling the sides up. About 1/4″ deep slashes should do the trick.

If you are not getting a crisp crust on the bottom, flip the bread over and bake for a few minutes with the bottom crust facing up.

Thanks, Zoë

chris said...
May 10, 2008 at 12:38 pm

Wonderful recipe! I’ve been making the basic for two weeks now and now have your book. My question is – my container is getting quite a bit of moisture and condensation in it – I just lay the lid on instead of pressing it down. I’m worried about mold – there was some liquid in the last batch I made but I’m thinking that is similar to what sour dough starters do. I just wanted to double check that this is ok – the bread came out wonderful, so the end result is just fine.

zoe said...
May 10, 2008 at 1:04 pm

Hi Chris,

Yes, what you describe is totally within the range of normal for our dough. If you put the warm dough in the refrigerator you will end up with condensation on the inside of the bucket. I’ve recently let a batch go for 3 weeks in the refrigerator and it developed quite a bit of liquid. I just added a bit more flour and proceeded as normal. If there is no actual mold then it is absolutely fine to continue using.

Thanks! Zoë

Rebecca said...
June 1, 2008 at 4:28 am

I just started reading your book, and notice you say to add the yeast to the salt in the water. Everything I have ever read about bread baking is that you don’t put the salt with the yeast because it interferes with the yeast. Do you do this because of the amount of yeast the recipe calls for? If you mix the salt in with the flour instead, does it affect the results (good or bad)? I am really looking forward to the book, because I have been baking artisan bread for years but as a working mom it has gotten more and more challenging to have time to bake bread that takes 2 days to prepare.

jeff said...
June 1, 2008 at 4:47 pm

Rebecca: You’re right, every traditional book cautions against letting salt and yeast come into contact for very long. And it is true that salt inhibits yeast growth. But we’ve tested this over and over again– for this length of time (before putting in flour), the yeast do just fine and rise the batch beautifully. We throw everything in at once for convenience sake, because the easier and quicker that first step is, the more likely people will store dough and bake every day.

It won’t make any difference at all if you mix the salt in with the flour, and if it’s equally convenient for you to do it that way, go for it!

Jeff

Nicole said...
June 24, 2008 at 11:50 am

I found a nice 6 liter Rubbermaid covered container at The Container Store in St. Louis. This is a chain so I’m sure you could find this somewhere other than my landlocked area! It is square which I find a great space saver.

zoe said...
June 24, 2008 at 12:02 pm

Hi Nicole,

That sounds perfect. Make sure to leave the lid cracked just a touch to allow the gases to escape.

Thanks for the tip!

Zoë

Julie said...
July 5, 2008 at 11:08 am

Hi Zoe and Jeff,

I’m reading through old posts, catching up on all I’ve missed while I’ve been playing with bread…

In January, Joyce posted that she wasn’t fond of the removable dust jacket on the book. It was the first thing that I noticed when I bought the book, I just KNEW that I’d beat that dust jacket to death in my kitchen! BUT, in the past when I’ve had a book with a dust cover that I wanted to preserve, I have taken them to our public library and had them put one of their celophane covers onto the dust jacket. They charge a small fee, but it’s worth it to have a book with a jacket on it that will stand up to heavy use.

What a compliment that we are ruining our dust jackets with heavy use!

The problem with your book is that I can’t bear to send it away for a week or so–I’m too busy using it!

Love the book,
Julie from Duluth

jeff said...
July 5, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Julie: You’re the best, this is so sweet. I didn’t know the library would do that! Jeff

Jackie said...
August 24, 2008 at 7:27 pm

Hello Zoe and Jeff,

I happen to have dough that is older than 14 days…(I know, unbelievable, but true). Is there a time frame that you would recommend NOT using the dough after? The dough looks perfectly fine aside from being a little wetter than when I initially made it.

The dough could be as old as 20 days – I can’t exactly recall when I made this (very large!) batch.

Thanks in advance.

Jackie

Wendi Flaherty said...
August 31, 2008 at 6:18 am

I’m relieved to know the gray color is nothing to worry about, but I am also having a second problem. I am using a 10 qt Rubbermaid container and leaving the lid ajar, but my dough always seems to form a tough skin after just a few days. I’ve made the bread with the skin and it has tough places in it. I’ve tried putting plastic wrap over the dough, gently pressing it down to actually make contact with the dough (but not airtight) with mixed success at avoiding the skin. I’ve only been making small batches, so I am wondering if there is too much air in the container even with the lid. Any suggestions?

marianne said...
August 31, 2008 at 6:44 am

Hi, I love your book and have made many of the wonderful breads our favorite so far is the pumpernickel one. I do have a question. I have a friend who loves ‘crunch’ in the bread. Can one add seeds such as sunflower, poppy etc. Should I compensate with more water. I added more granola to the granola recipe and changed the crumb to much denser. Should I have added more water. My thanks for the book. We all love the breads .

jeff said...
August 31, 2008 at 7:34 am

Wendi: Your guess about the small batch and the large container is a good one; maybe try to match the batch a little better to the container. But I’d also suggest that you seal the plastic container after the first loaf has been taken out of it and a day has passed. Gas production usually decreases enough by that point to allow you to do this without popping the container, and it will prevent the hard skin from forming. I’d have expected your plastic wrap idea to have handled this so try the alternatives and let us know how it works out. Jeff

jeff said...
August 31, 2008 at 7:36 am

Marianne: It depends on whether your added seed absorbs much water. If they’re cracked wheat, it absorbs water over the next 24 hours, and you need to compensate, I’ve found– add a little more water and don’t use the dough until 24 hours have passed. Granola will behave this way too. But whole seeds won’t absorb a lot of water (sunflower or poppy). But it all depends on how much you add, so experiment and let us know how you make out. Jeff

Toni said...
December 26, 2008 at 7:47 am

I have my first loaf of bread in the oven. (Fingers crossed) I used a round cake taker and just turned it upside down. There is enough head room to make two batches if I wanted to.

jeff said...
December 26, 2008 at 7:49 am

You’ll be great!

Jennifer said...
January 7, 2009 at 6:31 pm

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! I bought this book after reading all about it on several food blogs. I wanted to thank you for saving me the 30 mile trip to the “good” bakery for bread–your master recipe is better and cheaper! Now I just need to practice my slashing technique–too much one time, too little the next. It may not be pretty, but it tastes fantastic!

jeff said...
January 8, 2009 at 6:06 am

Jennifer– you’re welcome, so fun to hear from people. Check out the videos from our home page, at the top, for technique. Jeff

rho said...
January 9, 2009 at 11:09 pm

I was so glad to see the container on the left in front of the tulips since that is the one I am using … and I was over thinking and stressing about using the right container.

Tricia said...
April 12, 2009 at 4:15 am

I’m glad to read about the gray dough. We made our first batch of boule bread dough a week ago, and haven’t used it since then, but it has been in the refrigerator since then. It was actually on the counter for several hours before we put it in the refrigerator, so I was worried about that. It is stored in a white bucket that once held ground flax seed that we buy in bulk. Our bread did not seem to rise very well and seemed a bit dense. Could it be because we used sea salt and forgot to decrease the salt by 1/4, or is it more likely to be the fact that we only use freshly ground hard white or red wheat? (We used hard white this time.) We cooked it from the freshly made (unrefrigerated) dough that had been allowed to rise for a couple of hours, then formed and cloaked and let rest on a wooden cookie sheet covered with parchment paper, as we don’t have a pizza peel. We slid this into the oven after letting it rest for 40 minutes and cooked it (on the parchment paper) on a cookie sheet) at 450 degrees for about 25 minutes. I know we should cut back on the salt next time, but is this dough ruined due to that? Also, should we try a lower temperature and/or more water due to using all fresh ground whole wheat? Or maybe a different recipe? Typically we make all our own bread using a Zojirushi bread machine and our recipe includes honey, powdered milk, oil and an egg. Thanks for any advice! Oh and one more question, could we add ground flax seed to the recipe? We usually use it in our regular bread. Thanks again!

jeff said...
April 13, 2009 at 4:53 am

Tricia: Likely explanation was the hard wheat– requires more water; you’ll need to experiment. Likewise if you add ground flax– just keep the overall consistency the same, as in our videos and it should work better. Bottom line is that you can’t substitute high-protein or other heavier flours w/o a water adjustment.

terrie said...
April 20, 2009 at 2:58 am

hi wanted to know if hawaiian sea salt is fine to use in the master recipe- boule?

jeff said...
April 20, 2009 at 7:23 am

The key is how finely ground the salt is– sea salt is just fine though. See our post on salt adjustment based on fineness: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=85

terrie said...
April 20, 2009 at 1:26 pm

thank you for your reply I will use the sea salt and make my first try at this bread..thank you so much

terrie said...
April 20, 2009 at 3:56 pm

can you do this bread without the water in the broiler pan and just spritzing water on the loaf occaionally? to keep it crusty?

zoe said...
April 20, 2009 at 8:12 pm

Hi Terrie,

Yes, you can certainly use a bottle to spritz the dough with water. We didn’t use that method because some people find it more labor intensive than the broiler tray with water. Both will end in a lovely crust!

Enjoy, Zoë

LisaRene said...
October 21, 2009 at 8:32 am

I just gave your bread concept a try and made my first basic batch one week ago. I have made three small loaves using this batch of dough with good result. The problem is that I noticed I have mold-looking stuff growing on my dough in the refrigerator along with a blackish looking liquid starting to accumulate – clearly not a good thing considering the dough is only 7 days old.

I used a brand new container from King Arthur (pictured on the right) and cleaned and rinsed it throughly before mixing the dough in it. The book stressed over and over not to use an air tight container so I left the lid askew, could this be the reason for the mold?

Eager to hear your answers.

zoe said...
October 21, 2009 at 7:09 pm

Hi LisaRene,

Are you sure it is mold and not just a discoloration of the dough. The top of the dough may turn a darkish purple color and have the dark liquid and all of this is perfectly normal. It is just a byproduct from the yeast. It actually acts as a preservative for the dough, and is not at all dangerous. I’m surprised that you are having this so quickly and when you are using the dough so often. I usually get this when I have left the dough unattended for a few days in a row.

Hope that helps! Zoë

LisaRene said...
October 22, 2009 at 10:08 am

Zoe – Thanks for the quick response. Yes, my dough looked as you have described. It didn’t have actually fuzzy mold but had a blackish/speckled/moldy appearance with a purple/blackish liquid forming. After looking over past comments it seems others have expressed the same concerns with their dough. Sounds like it occurs about day 7 or so.

It would be very valuable if you posted a color photo or two of the dough as it ages, showing it in this purple/liquid/discoloration stage as it would be very easy to mistake it for ruined dough.

jeff said...
October 22, 2009 at 10:34 am

Lisa: Your second note here makes this a bit more difficult to tell what’s going on– you’ve used the word “speckled.” Mold doesn’t have to be fuzzy– any patchy growth on the surface is a problem– it can be light-colored or dark, fuzzy or smooth. So if the dough surface is “speckled,” with patches of any color, as you say, it could be mold and should be thrown out. Uniform darkening of the exposed dough surface (usually with dark liquid above) is not a problem. I’ll look for a batch that does this and try to photograph it.

So: dark liquid and uniform dough discoloration isn’t a problem, but a patch or patches, in spots on the surface, definitely could be a problem. Jeff

Amanda said...
February 4, 2010 at 3:36 pm

Just for those that are interested… I have found that Ikea carries a great storage container for bread dough. They have a lid that is not airtight and fit and stack nicely in the fridge. They are called Slugis and are located in the organization section at the store.

zoe said...
February 4, 2010 at 9:12 pm

Hi Amanda,

I know Jeff has found some great food grade containers at Ikea and I have some great glass flour bins that I got there as well. Love Ikea!

Thanks, Zoë

Diane said...
February 22, 2010 at 9:16 am

I have a quick question about the Bran-Enriched White Bread recipe. (pg. 72) I notice the ingredient list calls for a cornstarch wash, but the directions don’t make any reference to this later. Could you comment on what a cornstarch was is and how/when to use it? Thanks!

zoe said...
February 22, 2010 at 12:33 pm

Hi Diane,

It is a traditional wash to help achieve a glossy crust on the bread. In our second book we tested with and without it and realized that it was a step that didn’t achieve as much results for the effort. It turns out brushing the loaf with water does as good a job, with much less effort!

Thank you! Zoë

Sharon said...
February 27, 2010 at 7:54 am

my dough never fell into itself waited 8 hours

zoe said...
February 27, 2010 at 9:49 am

Hi Sharon,

Here is a post that shows what the dough will look like, it just flattens out a bit. http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=1616

Thanks, Zoë

neelima said...
April 4, 2010 at 9:05 pm

Hi Zoe and Jeff,
I am new to bread baking and was really interested in trying the recipes from your book. Had a quick question though: I am trying to remove all plastic from my life, so I was thinking I could store the dough in two 4 qt pyrex mixing bowls covered by dinner plate, so that I can store them on top of each other in the refrigerator. Do you think it will work or should I use plastic wrap only.
Thanks a bunch..
Neelima

jeff said...
April 5, 2010 at 8:56 am

Neelima: You can use glass, pyrex, stainless steel, glazed pottery (food-safe of course), and the plates are fine on top. They’ll vent just enough to prevent pressure buildup. May want to transfer to smaller bowls as you use it up if the surface seems to be drying.

neelima said...
April 5, 2010 at 10:56 am

Thanks Jeff!