Liz Krezowski said...
February 11, 2008 at 12:57 pm

Thank you. We did hear about your bread book and then lost track.
I will now try to buy it.
Your comments on high altitude are quite interesting to us. We are Minnesotans but live in Vail in the winter. We sleep at 8500 feet and also cook there. (We ski on up to near 12,000 feet of snow/mountain and of course the cooks at the on mountain restaurants are cooking there too.)
4000 does not seem high to us. There is a column in the local Vail paper that addresses hi alt cooking but your hints are excellent. Thank you.

zoe said...
February 11, 2008 at 1:21 pm

Hi Liz,

I am still doing some research and if I learn anything else I’ll post it here!

Please be in touch from Vail and let me know how your bread baking goes. Nothing like a day skiing and warming up with home baked bread!

Thanks, Zoë

Yogamum said...
February 19, 2008 at 11:09 am

I was really glad to come across this Q& A — I live at 6000 ft. and I decreased the yeast to about 1.25 tablespoons. The dough did rise fast, and then collapsed, but I thought it tasted great anyway. I will experiment a bit more as I’d like to see a lighter inside of the loaf next time. Will report back!

jeff said...
February 19, 2008 at 4:00 pm

Yogamum: Did you use bread flour? That’s the other thing you can do, plus the cold rise method detailed above. Keep us posted, thanks!

Jeff

zoe said...
February 19, 2008 at 5:37 pm

Hi yogamum,

Also try cutting the yeast to 1 tablespoon and see if that slows things down a bit. You can try starting with cold water to see if it helps.

Good luck! Thanks, Zoë

fairhavenranch said...
February 20, 2008 at 9:39 am

I am at 5,300 feet altitude. I have tried decreasing the yeast, changed to bread flour and longer rising times. I am still getting dense small loaves. Storing the dough in the refrigerator makes it get smaller and I only get three grapefruit sized balls of dough from a batch. I am wondering if the initial rise when you first mix the dough is too long and it is over proofing? I only let it rise until double which is about one hour or it goes crazy. I am also wondering about adding wheat gluten and how that might help and how much to use. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

zoe said...
February 20, 2008 at 1:04 pm

Hi fairhavenranch,

I have two thoughts for you to try out.

1. Use cold water and let the dough rise entirely in the refrigerator. You may have to let it do this rise overnight, instead of two hours.

2. Your thought about using vital wheat gluten sounds like a good one! It will improve the structure of the dough and perhaps give it more strength. The general rule for vital wheat gluten is about 1 teaspoon per cup of flour.

The dough does deflate after the initial rise in the bucket. But, it should still have great oven spring once it hits the oven.

Thank you for trying this and please keep in touch with your progress!

Zoë

Yogamum said...
February 26, 2008 at 8:06 pm

I decreased the yeast to 1 tablespoon and actually got a better initial rise and a more “holey” dough. It didn’t rise much in the fridge, though. (This was the European Peasant Bread.) The bread was still a bit dense but absolutely delicious. I will try cold water next time and see what happens!

zoe said...
February 26, 2008 at 10:39 pm

Hi Yogamum,

This is encouraging. Please keep us posted on the cold water and what that does to the dough.

Thanks! Zoë

Joe said...
March 5, 2008 at 8:13 am

High altitude means lower air pressure, so for most baking applications you reduce the water. 4,000′ is not terribly high, so try reducing your water by a couple tablespoons. This usually means allowing for a longer rise. Also, since hig altitudes tend to have lower humidity, it is important to keep your rising dough covered so it does not develop too much of a “skin.”

HTH
Joe

Amy said...
March 6, 2008 at 9:34 pm

I’ve had good results at around 5000 feet by adding a tablespoon of dough enhancer to each recipe.

Tiffani said...
March 13, 2008 at 1:16 pm

We live at 7,000 feet and it is very dry. So far I’ve tried at least four of your recipes and they’ve all turned out fine in our book. (I read these comments first and decreased the yeast to about 1Tbs.) Of course our family will eat just about anything that resembles bread that is homemade! Today it was the spinach feta bread. I think this was the first time that the moisture content turned out just right for handling it. The previous ones were so wet that half the dough stuck to my hands.

Jesse said...
March 14, 2008 at 9:50 am

I live at 7,000 feet, and I haven’t done anything to adjust for the altitude when using the book’s recipes, and everything I have made has turned out perfectly. Now, using baking powder and baking soda is another story– a few disasters there!

Beth said...
March 23, 2008 at 11:41 am

I’m at about 6500 feet. I got my copy on February 15, when this thread was the top blogline, and I’ve been toying around with the various suggestions ever since. My best results have come from cutting the yeast to 1 Tbsp, doing nothing else different from the recipe, but letting the dough sit for at least 24-36 hours before baking. I made a loaf from a week-old master dough last night that turned out just beautifully.

jeff said...
March 23, 2008 at 4:44 pm

Thanks Beth, this may be the simplest fix yet. Have any other high-altitude people tried this? Zoe and I can’t test this out on the prairie! Jeff

Kate Knepper said...
May 10, 2008 at 10:30 am

I live in Fort Collins, CO at 5000 ft. Through experimentation, I came up with the following adjustments: I reduce the yeast to 1 T 1/2 tsp, increase to 3 1/4 cups water, 1 T kosher salt, 3 cups Gold Medal flour, 2 1/2 cups King Arthur bread flour, and 1/2 cup King Arthur white whole wheat flour and have had terrific results. I let it rise 2 hours and then always refrigerate overnight before baking.

zoe said...
May 10, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Hi Kate,

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I’m sure it will be so helpful to others who live at high altitudes.

Zoë

wynk said...
July 5, 2008 at 10:42 pm

Just wanted to add in my experience–I am on vacation at 7500 feet (normally I’m at sea level!) and decided to try the advice above of reducing the yeast to one Tablespoon. I also added a leeeetle more salt–not a lot, just about half a teaspoonful. To make matters worse, we are sans baking stone up here so I used a regular cookie sheet for the first time.

It turned out BEAUTIFULLY! The crust was crispy and chewy, the crumb was soft and not too dense, and the flavor, if possible, was even better than it normally is at home. I didn’t use anything fancy–Gold Medal unbleached all-purpose flour and whatever yeast packets were on sale–and refrigerated the dough overnight after a 2-hour rise. The bread was actually done baking after 25 minutes.

jeff said...
July 6, 2008 at 5:39 am

This sounds great. Yes, salt inhibits the action of yeast, so I’m not surprised it helped a bit. But be aware that our recipes have a little more salt than is typical for most bread. So some people may find your results a little salty for their taste (probably not Zoe or I!). Jeff

wynk said...
July 6, 2008 at 11:00 am

That’s why I only put a little bit more. I didn’t notice any particularly salty note to the flavor, and I’m EXTREMELY sensitive to salty flavors. I think I may have found the sweet spot. (so to speak.)

jeff said...
July 6, 2008 at 11:15 am

Excellent!

European Peasant Bread « Mission: Kitchen Ambition said...
November 12, 2008 at 10:38 pm

[...] the denser-than-expected results. Sure ’nuff, I went to Jeff & Zoe’s site and found this thread and it looks like some people have experienced similar symptoms as I. With my next batch, [...]

Tricia said...
November 27, 2008 at 8:34 am

I live just south of Denver and the recipes turn out pretty good, although the bottom crust isn’t as good as the rest the bread turns out very dense, but the bread wasn’t flat like I read in some of the comments. Thanks for the tip. I’ll make the adjustment and see how that works out.

alison said...
December 2, 2008 at 2:38 pm

I live at 9,000 feet and have found great luck with your tips. The loaf was great before the altitude, but a bit dense and not many air holes.

I’m looking for a good recipe for high altitude whole wheat bread that doesn’t have milk, 100% ww if possible?

jeff said...
December 2, 2008 at 3:13 pm

You can try our 100% whole wheat on page 76, but try the tips on two other of our posts:

http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=141

and in particular the tips about vital wheat gluten at…

http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142

There’ll be much more about 100% whole wheat breads in our second book, tentatively titled “Healthy Bread in Five Minutes a Day,” which will be out in about 12 months.

Thanks for visiting, welcome to the site! Jeff

Lois said...
December 5, 2008 at 12:07 pm

Hi – I also live in mile-high, bone-dry Fort Collins and have arrived at the following, which is working well for me:
I reduce the yeast to 1T (I’m using Saf-Instant Gold; available on King Arthur’s website as well as others – shop around).
After the first mix with the prescribed amount of flour and water, I usually end up adding a little more water – maybe 1T or at most 2T – so that the batter moves around (“conforms to the shape of the container”) but isn’t really loose.
I preheat the oven to 450, but as soon as I put it in, I reduce it to 425.
I get great crust and texture. I’ve mostly made the basic recipe so far and I usually use 2/3 white flour and 1/3 white whole wheat, for extra fiber. One thing I tried that was great was to brush the loaf with an olive oil/herb dipping sauce (an herbal mix that includes some parmesan cheese). It added a lot of flavor and even improved the crust. I just tried the rye for the first time and it was fabulous. Thanks so much for this book – it blows me away every time I get such fabulous bread out of my own oven!

Lois said...
December 5, 2008 at 12:10 pm

One more thing, I use room-temperature water.

jeff said...
December 5, 2008 at 12:44 pm

Thanks Lois. Sounds like you’ve really been able to fine-tune it exactly the way you like, which was our goal all along. Jeff

Tracy said...
December 20, 2008 at 6:51 pm

I bake your bread daily just above 7,000 ft. I generally use the master recipe and have tremendous success with adding a bit of water, sticking with 2 pounds of flour. Baking on the back of a cookie sheet rather than a stone actually seems to help develop an excellent crust here.

We love the book, and are suggesting it to everyone we know who requests that I bring them more bread. Keep up the good work.

jeff said...
December 20, 2008 at 9:16 pm

Thanks for visiting, Tracy. Interesting about what you’re finding with the cookie sheet. Have you actually compared it with the result from a stone?

And thanks for suggesting us to friends, it means a lot to us. Jeff

Tracy said...
December 22, 2008 at 7:26 pm

I have tried both the stone and the cookie sheet, and found that for me the bread turned out better that way… I was new to the proces when I tried a stone last, so perhaps I will re-visit that one and see if I have the same result now that I am more comfortable with the process.

Traci said...
January 1, 2009 at 9:12 am

“I live at 7,000 feet, and I haven’t done anything to adjust for the altitude when using the book’s recipes, and everything I have made has turned out perfectly. Now, using baking powder and baking soda is another story– a few disasters there!”

I ditto this comment. I live at 7000ft and haven’t had problems following the recipe exactly. There aren’t a ton of large air holes, but they haven’t been too dense or flat. I’m going to decrease the yeast with my next recipe to see what happens.

jeff said...
January 1, 2009 at 9:23 am

Traci: My only explanation is that this is a matter of taste. Some people have found the high altitude stuff too dense, but maybe they’re like me… I like dense bread.

My guess is that increasing the yeast won’t help… we already use a pretty large dose of yeast, but let us know if you think that helps.

A Parker said...
January 18, 2009 at 8:54 pm

I live at about 6000 ft., and have read the suggestions on your website for high altitude and whole grain breads. After experimenting, I came up with a recipe for (mostly) whole wheat bread that is not too dense and very tasty:

3 1/3 cups water-room temp.
(sometimes I’ll add even up to 1/4 cup additional water to get a very wet dough)
1 T yeast
6 1/2 tsp vital wheat gluten
1 2/3 tsp coarse salt
4 cups whole wheat flour
2 1/2 cups high gluten white flour

I make free form loaves, flatbread pizzas,foccacia, naan and pita bread with this recipe. While I would prefer to use only ww flour, I have never been able to get the “100% whole wheat sandwich bread” to turn out well (even when using the high altitude adjustments), and my family likes the above recipe so much that I have decided that I’ll just bake with it for now. I was never much of a bread baker before finding your book, and now I make it all the time. We haven’t purchased store-bought bread in over 2 months now. Thanks!

Emily said...
January 18, 2009 at 11:24 pm

I have been playing with the recipe here in Denver for quite some time, and have finally gotten it right!

I followed previous reader’s suggestions and decreased the yeast to 1 T, and added a bit more salt (about 2 tsp. more).

The two things that have made a difference for me are wetting my hands when I pull the dough out/smooth it, rather than flouring my hands. I also baked it in a pre-heated Dutch oven.

I baked the bread for the first 15 minutes with the lid on my Le Creuset, then took off for the remaining time. I’m just happy to have finally made the recipe work at this altitude! Reading people’s experiences and comments has been extremely helpful- thanks, Zoe and Jeff!

jeff said...
January 19, 2009 at 7:09 am

A: You might find 100% WW to work better with even more vital wheat gluten (2 tsp per cup of dry grain ingredient, let’s say). Probably need to increase the water if you do that.

Emily: Sounds great, our stuff works nicely in a closed container (and then you don’t need to create steam in the oven).

Emily:

MaryBeth said...
January 20, 2009 at 10:22 pm

I’m at 5000+ in Boulder, CO, and while I didn’t originally make the following adjustments to adjust for altitude, I made some anyway, and get great bread! From day one, I’ve made the basic recipe with 3.5 c. whole wheat bread flour (home-ground) and 3c. white bread flour, plus a hair more water to account for the whole wheat flour. Great Stuff!

Tonight is my first attempt at the actual 100% whole wheat dough recipe from the book. Nothing will be baked until Thursday, but I’ll let you know how it goes.

jeff said...
January 21, 2009 at 6:43 am

Thanks MaryBeth: We’ve gotten a range of responses to this post. Some people at altitude tell us everything works as written, most need to make some adjustments. I think it may be a matter of taste– their tolerance for denser bread. For the 100% WW, take a look at this too: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142

Let us know how it works out.

Llew said...
February 4, 2009 at 4:59 am

I’m at 5000+’ in Johannesburg, South Africa. Received you book two days ago. Last night I made the European Peasant Bread dough with stone-ground bread flour, rye and whole-wheat flour. This afternoon I baked a pound boule. I followed the recipe to the letter, except I first tested my oven’s temperature. Out by 90F! I only baked when the thermometer read 450F. My oven’s dial was off the scale by that time.

Unbelievable! The best bread I have ever baked! I can’t believe how easy it was. I have many bread books and have been baking for quite a while.

Thanks for the tip to test the oven temperature first and thanks for a great book!

I should have taken a photo of the bread, but we polished it in one go…

zoe said...
February 4, 2009 at 6:49 am

Hi Llew,

How very exciting! I’m so glad the bread was such a success.

I too had an oven that was 80°F off. I also had to prop a chair up to the door to keep it closed. Once I knew how to compensate it baked just great. An oven thermometer is key!

Thanks and welcome to the site,

Zoë

Dana said...
February 16, 2009 at 10:01 pm

Hello Jeff and Zoe, I live at 9500 ft in Colorado, and just wanted to say THANK YOU!! Baking anything at this altitude is a challenge, sometimes impossible (pecan pie will explode and catch your oven on fire!) but thanks to this little page added to your wonderful book I’ve made “the best bread since I lived with my Mom” according to my husband and some of his co-workers! Since that came from my first batch I must say I am really impressed with all the thought that went into your book, and this site. I used bread flour and decreased the yeast to 1T, and after the 2hr rise refrigerated the dough for 2 days. I also used a cookie sheet because I don’t own a baking stone yet and the crust was still amazing. Once I used the oven thermometer and found my oven was off by 50 degrees everything was fantastic! I’m going to attempt a wheat bread next and hopefully that will be just as gratifying as the boule dough. Again I thank you, from a sea level girl who never thought she’d bake again!

zoe said...
February 16, 2009 at 10:48 pm

Hi Dana,

That is so exciting! I’m so pleased to hear that it is working that high up!

Have fun and enjoy all the bread!

Thanks, Zoë

A Parker said...
March 1, 2009 at 8:23 am

Thanks for the suggestion. I have increased the ww flour and added more VWG (vital wheat gluten)and more water. It has produced a wonderful, soft ww bread. Now I use 5 1/2 cups ww, 1 cup white bread flour, 6 T (18 tsp) VWG, 1 T yeast, 1T coarse salt, 3.5 to 4 cups water.I let it rest about 3 hours, since it’s cool in the kitchen these days. (Tried letting it rise overnight in the fridge, but it did not work for me, FYI.) I am so happy to have discovered your book. Thanks!

jeff said...
March 1, 2009 at 8:34 am

Terrific, thank you for sticking with it at high altitude. And thank you for the tips. Jeff

Jessica said...
March 11, 2009 at 10:53 am

I just heard about your book and now have it on hold at my library. I am also high and dry (6500 feet in Colorado Springs, Colorado), so it’s great to get tips like these.

Peter said...
April 10, 2009 at 1:53 pm

We live at 7700′. We made the Artisan bread and it came out fine. After a week we froze the dough. The next time we tried to bake a loaf, we left the frozen dough in the fridge overnight. This time the bread came out heavy in the middle. Do you have any suggestions as to why it would have come out heavy in the middle.

zoe said...
April 10, 2009 at 2:17 pm

Hi Peter,

Try allowing the dough to rest longer before it goes in the oven. It should no longer feel cold and dense, like it does when it first comes out of the refrigerator.

Let me know how it goes!

Zoë

Hatchet said...
April 14, 2009 at 11:20 pm

Jeff and Zoe, I just wanted to say thank you SO much for producing your book. I picked up a copy in February and haven’t bought a loaf of bread since then. I live in CO and am at a mile above sea level, so I really appreciate this discussion thread and how quickly you respond to everyone’s questions.

I took A Parker’s suggestions and fiddled with them a bit myself and came up with a tasty loaf of bread that my husband and children really love. I wrote about it at http://womanwithahatchet.blogspot.com/2009/04/bread-bread-bread.html. Oh and apparently I’m the direct cause of a number of my friends buying your book and going on a baking spree as well. So I thank you and my friends and family thank you, too. Keep up the good work!

I look forward to your second book!

mark said...
April 15, 2009 at 4:35 am

I want to say – thank you for this!

jeff said...
April 15, 2009 at 5:41 am

Hatchet: Thanks for putting the VWG suggestions on the website to work (http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142)

Tommie Hannum said...
April 29, 2009 at 2:58 pm

Thanks for all these ideas… will try your suggestions and let you know it goes…This site is amazing!!!

Lew said...
May 14, 2009 at 3:18 pm

I live at 7,000ft and have used your light whole wheat recipe several times on a baking stone with no changes. The bread is very good but the bottom crust is tough–not impossible to eat but tougher than the top crust which is perfect. Does anyone have any suggestions for the bottom crust? I noticed that another commenter had the same problem at altitude.

zoe said...
May 14, 2009 at 7:36 pm

Hi Lew,

I wonder if you baked it 75% of the time on the stone and then move the loaf to bake directly on the upper oven rack for the remainder of the baking. It seems to me that the bottom crust would be a bit thinner this way??? Moving the loaf up the top of the oven may also reduce the amount of baking time by a few minutes, so watch it closely.

Good luck and let me know how it goes.

Zoë

Lew said...
May 14, 2009 at 8:01 pm

Thank you, zoe. I will try your recommendation. Web sites like this are what make the internet valuable to people. We should not forget that none of this communications would have been possible 15 years ago. Bye the bye, I bought your book because Amazon recommended it to me and then I read the reviews which were uniformly very good. Another amazing part of the internet. But then, I grew up in a time when people were stunned by te “magic” of TV and hummed to themselves “See the USA in your Chevrolet.”

jeff said...
May 15, 2009 at 6:17 am

Lew: One other suggestion if the shelf switch doesn’t help: There’s an old baking rule that goes “bake high in the oven to brown the top crust, bake low in the oven to brown the bottom.” So you might experiment with your initial placement of the stone– maybe higher in the first place will help? Jeff

Lew said...
May 16, 2009 at 6:22 pm

Thanks Jeff and Zoe for the help. The problem is solved. I have two, yes two, oven thermometers which are in near agreement. One is a Taylor mercury and the other a new MUI. Both said my oven dial was consistently about 25 low. I was adjusting the oven accordingly. I don’t know why, but suddenly I suspected the thermometers… perhaps, my old friend Occam’s razor. I borrowed a professional, accurately calibrated thermometer from a client who runs a local restaurant. And, sacre blue, my oven dial is about 10 high. So I’ve been baking at 35 plus over what I should. The next loaf: Perfect. Crust was super on the top and bottom. So much for cheap thermometers, even if they agree.

Lew said...
May 16, 2009 at 6:58 pm

P.S. I suspect that many other problems in home baking are caused by inaccurate (cheap) oven thermometers.

Shanna said...
June 9, 2009 at 12:56 pm

I finally came up with a solution at 7300 feet! I have a photo of my success at http://www.nynrecipes.com/2009/06/high-altitude-bread-making-miracle.html
I tried to keep my solution as close to the original recipe as possible.
here it is:
Bread Flour instead of unbleached all purpose white flour
Yeast: reduce to 1 Tbsp.
Water: Increase by 1/3 cup
Water: use cold water
Proof in refrigerator for 36 hours
Shape ball quickly so gas does not escape
Let the ball rest for 14 hours
-I also checked the temperature of my oven for accuracy and used me le creuset to bake in.
Thank you Jeff and Zoe for all of your help!

Mary said...
June 15, 2009 at 1:04 pm

I think I win the prize for the highest altitude. I live at 10,600 ft. Here’s how I tweaked the recipe. I used cold tap water (and my tap water is really cold). I halved the yeast to 2 1/4 tsp and added 1 tsp of salt. I let it rise for five hours and punched it down and put it in the refrig over night. The first time I cooked the bread at 400 and it was a little gummy in the middle. The next time I followed your instructions and it turned out beautifully as did the cinnamon rolls I tried.

Mary said...
June 17, 2009 at 2:04 pm

I need to clarify that in the above recipe I used 1 1/2 Tbs of table salt and I used all purpose flour. Other than that I followed the rest of your instructions for resting and baking times.

jeff said...
June 17, 2009 at 3:04 pm

Mary: So you boosted our salt, in effect! You may win the prize for that— some people have suggested that our stuff is already salty, and using fine salt in the same amount is probably boosting it 30%. But I can’t argue with success. At 10,600 feet!

Assume you stopped punching down? This often makes our stuff less store-able, by knocking all the air out of the batch. Jeff

alison gannett said...
July 13, 2009 at 6:50 pm

I live at 9,000 feet and have found that the following works best so far, and produces the best crumb:

yeast – one teaspoon (yes, teaspoon)
6 cups bread flour (cut 1/2 cup)
salt – same
water – same

rise, bake, proof – same.

Kara said...
July 22, 2009 at 11:44 am

Jeff and Zoe -
Greetings from Nairobi, Kenya! I just got your book and tried it immediatly – I used local yeast and flour, and since I’m at over 5,000 ft, I cut my yeast down to 1 Tbsp, and upped the salt just a little (Master Recipe). It turned out great! I am so excited to have fresh baked bread that is so easy. Thanks so much! You will soon be the talk of the ex-pat community in Nairobi!

Kara

jeff said...
July 22, 2009 at 12:05 pm

Fabulous Kara, thanks for writing, and come back whenever you have questions. Glad there was an easy fix for you at 5000 feet. Jeff

Patricia said...
July 24, 2009 at 5:11 pm

I just love your book! Have told everyone about it and given away several loaves of bread that made new devotees of your book.
This morning I baked the cinnamon-raisin bread and my husband can’t keep the bread knife out of it. I need to bake two loaves the next time! I’m wondering if I can grease a non-teflon bread pan for the second pan.
Also, can I bake the artisan breads in a bread pan? I usually bake them on the stone.
And, lastly, I bought some gluten and wondered if I could use it it the basic recipe to see what would happen. I know you can add it to ww and rye flour but what about all white flour recipes?
Thanks again for some excellent breads. My husband is even in there making his own basic dough and his own bread! Never thought I’d see the day. You have given us so much to enjoy with your book.

zoe said...
July 24, 2009 at 10:09 pm

Hi Patricia,

Thank you for your note, we are glad you are enjoying the bread. Just so you know, you can leave us a note on any post and we will see it.

If you use a pan that is not non-stick you may run the risk of it sticking. Some people have lined their pans with parchment and greased them very well to make sure that the wet dough doesn’t stick to the pan. You can bake any kind of dough in a loaf pan, but depending on the amount of dough you will need to increase the resting and baking times to adjust to more dough.

Vital Wheat Gluten is a wonderful product and in fact we discuss it thoroughly in our second book: Healthy Bread in Five Minutes a Day. It can be added to any flour, but it isn’t always necessary if you are using a flour with a fair amount of gluten in it to begin with. If you want to play with it, just remember that it will absorb quite a bit of water and so you will need to add some additional water to the recipe.

Thanks and enjoy the bread! Zoë

Rich said...
August 3, 2009 at 9:28 pm

I have recently moved to Lake Tahoe and love baking CInnamon Rolls with a dough that I generally pre make and freeze until needed. When I lived near sea level I never had a problem. While I am still getting great reviews from our new friends on their taste I am having tremendous issues with the centers falling in. The steps I have always taken are as follows. I defrost the frozen dough in the refridgerator to 40 degrees and then roll at night and then place back in the refridgerator unitl baked in the morning. I am wondering is there anything I can add to the pre made dough during the rolling stage to eliminate the sinking center. I made about 25 lbs of dough recently that I would prefer not to waste. I have checked the oven temp and it is accurate and tried baking the cinnamon rolls at 350, 365 and 380 with no luck. Any thoughts? would be appreciated

Thanks

Rich

zoe said...
August 4, 2009 at 6:45 am

Hi Rich,

Are they fully baked or do they seem to be raw in the middle? How long are you baking them? How large are the buns?

Sorry to answer your question with more questions, but it will help me to figure this out.

Thanks, Zoë

Rich said...
August 15, 2009 at 12:53 pm

Sometime they end up a little raw in the middle when I pull them out but its not consistently raw in the middle. The buns are probably 1/2 inch wider then a “Cinnabon” roll and typically bake to the same hieght as them until they sink. The bake time seems to vary from 23 to 30 minutes. They seem to hold their shape for an hour or so after baking if I do not frost them. If I frost them forget about it they sink from the weight of the frosting.

jeff said...
August 16, 2009 at 5:00 pm

Rich: Have you tried a cold refrigerator rise for them after shaping?

Maggie said...
August 18, 2009 at 9:12 pm

At 7400 ft. I used hi gluten, organic bread flour and regular recipe. I used a stone in a 450 degree oven w/steam. After 45 minutes, the loaf was still dense and doughy. Any ideas?

jeff said...
August 19, 2009 at 8:57 am

Maggie: Did you already try a longer rest time, in the cold? I mean, in the refrigerator? Whether you did or not, what rest time did you use? Which of the interventions in this post have you already tried? Jeff

Maggie said...
August 19, 2009 at 8:31 pm

I have not tried any yet, as I did not see any relating to raw dough after 45 minutes. After I posted, I saw your “corrections” page and saw that the boule can rise from 40 min to 1 1/2 hours. I will try letting it rise longer to see if this helps. I think it didn’t cook because the loaf was too dense.

jeff said...
August 19, 2009 at 9:59 pm

Maggie: After you try the longer rise, do try the interventions in this post. I’m sure you’ll end up with something you like. When we say “dense,” we could have just as easily said “raw dough.” Same cause. Jeff

rebecca said...
August 25, 2009 at 10:26 am

i didn’t take the time to read all comments on high-altitude baking, but i thought i’d offer what i’ve been doing as it’s been working well at 6000′. i’ve been using the whole wheat recipe from the mother earth news website, but subsituting 2c. bread flour for whole wheat flour and leaving the rest of the recipe the same. the only other change i’ve made is a slightly lower baking temp (325 instead of 350). the loaves have been turning out wonderfully!

Larry said...
September 11, 2009 at 9:17 pm

I have been baking a more or less traditional sourdough bread for years, which is very good (100% KA bread flour). 6000 feet elevation. However, no matter what I do to it, I can’t get big holes. So, I thought, “Aha! Maybe this will work!” Even with your recipe, still can’t get big holes. Have added water til the dough almost flows, baked in a hot oven, a 450 oven, or a 400 oven, and everything else I can think of. I also am not getting as much spring in the oven as I think I should. New yeast, etc., etc. Maybe I’m just incompetent?! In reading thru all this, one thing I have NOT seen mentioned that I think could be involved here, is from my sourdough experience, I am used to a long “rest” and maybe the yeast is “starved out” by the time it gets to the oven. I have noticed the longer the dough is in the fridge (as in 3 or 4 days, not weeks), the lower the rise. Thoughts?

zoe said...
September 12, 2009 at 6:32 am

Hi Larry,

It is true, even for us at lower elevation that the dough will eventually lose some of its ability to rise. Perhaps as high altitude this process is accelerated, especially as high as 6000 feet.

Have you tried adding vital wheat gluten to your dough to strengthen the structure of it?

You may also have good luck with the Dutch Oven technique, which will give you a super hot environment to bake in and usually promotes a nice crumb? Here is a post about this method: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=552

Thanks and let me know if either of these things sound helpful. If not, we will think of something else!

Zoë

Susan said...
October 4, 2009 at 11:21 am

I live at 5000′ near Albuquerque, New Mexico and am still trying to finetune the recipe. I have made two batches with less yeast each time; the second time I decreased the yeast to 1 T., let the boule rest for 1 1/2 hours and increased the baking time to 35 minutes.

My problems are that I only get 2-3 loaves from a batch, and the last loaf in the batch is extremely wet. The first loaf was very good, but still a bit dense. Each time, the last loaf (at end of two weeks) was so wet that it didn’t rise much, and stuck horribly to the stone, even though I tried to work in a bit more flour when I formed it. By the way, the dough did rise more than double during the two hours, and then settled in the fridge.

Any thoughts as to why the dough is so wet later on, and what to try? (I have not tried cold water or rise only in fridge.)

Thanks,
Susan

zoe said...
October 4, 2009 at 9:25 pm

Hi Susan,

If you are seeing a brownish liquid on top of the dough, you can just pour it off, it is a natural byproduct of the dough and actually acts as a preservative for the dough. Totally normal. However, if you mean that the dough itself is very wet and kind of mushy, this sometimes happens if the dough has sat in the bucket for several days without being touched at all. You can just incorporate more flour to the batch, then you need to let it rest for about an hour before using it. The other option is to mix a fresh batch of dough right on top of this dough. Doing this will give new life to the old dough and jump start the flavor of the new batch.

The dough will lose some of its rising power towards the end of the recommended storage time, so you may want to use it for flatbreads and not high domed boules. You can also try baking it in a loaf pan.

Are you trying the refrigerator rise or doing all the rises at room temperature?

I hope this helps. Thanks, Zoë

Susan said...
October 5, 2009 at 7:07 pm

Hi Zoe,

Yes, the dough is definitely very wet and mushy–especially the dough at the bottom portion of the bucket–and it is after not being touched for several days. As you mentioned, the end results have been more like flatbreads. How much extra flour would you recommend adding as a first attempt?

As for the rise, I have only done the room temperature version so far.

Thanks so much for your help. This is my first time making bread, and I’m really enjoying the book!

Susan

zoe said...
October 5, 2009 at 8:03 pm

Hi Susan,

The amount of flour you add will depend on how much dough is left in the bucket. The goal is to get the dough to feel as it did when you first mixed it up.

You may want to try the over night refrigerated rise and see if you have better results. Please keep me posted as you try new things, it is so helpful to hear back!

Thanks, Zoë

jasmine said...
October 26, 2009 at 7:58 pm

Susan,

I live near Albuquerque in the East Mountains, and am at about 6000 ft. I have had a lot of luck with 1T yeast, full salt amt, water a little under 100 degrees, a three hour initial rise, and doing my rise after shaping in the fridge on parchment for several hours. Overnight rise and bake in the morning, or I do an all-day rise and bake in the evening. I am not sure the crumb is perfect, but it is open and not too wet or dense for my tastes. I use KA unbleached all-purpose for the master recipe, though I leave the water at 3 cups, and weigh the flour to 2 lbs. It has been working really well. I might play with increasing the water since I saw it posted here. But to get 5 loaves, my grapefruit size is a bit on the small size. Not Texas grapefruit, but regular ones. I don’t know if that helps, but I’m in your area.

Jasmine

zoe said...
October 26, 2009 at 8:19 pm

Thank you Jasmine,

We so appreciate you sharing your success, it will no doubt be very helpful for others living at high altitudes!

Happy baking! Zoë

Kathleen said...
November 21, 2009 at 6:03 pm

I live at 5000 feet and in general my bread comes out great following the master recipe. Mhy problem is the bread rises in the oven like a popover with the bottom sort of breaking away and pushing the loaf up. does anyone have a solution for that?

zoe said...
November 22, 2009 at 12:12 am

Hi Kathleen,

Do you mean there is a large air pocket in the dough like a popover or it is just the shape of one? If it is just the shape of a popover then it could be that the dough is too dry, not resting long enough or you are not slashing it deeply enough.

Let me know if any of this sounds like possible culprits.

Zoë

sylvia m buckland said...
January 6, 2010 at 11:05 am

I have just backed my first loaf, it look wonderful but after slicing it when cold the crumb was very dense, the dough did not see very wet when I first baked it I am in a very cold low humidity climate in Montana at the moment, should I add more water to my nex mix

zoe said...
January 6, 2010 at 3:02 pm

Hi Sylvia,

How high up are you baking? Did you already make some of the changes to the dough for high altitude baking? A dense crumb is pretty common when baking at high altitudes and so you may need to alter the dough to get a lighter crumb. If you have not already done so you may also want to read the other comments, there are some great suggestions from other high altitude bakers.

Thanks, Zoë

Jerry said...
February 12, 2010 at 9:04 am

can someone please tell me the oven temperature? So much information, but I can’t find the oven temperature anywhere…LOL. Help! Please e-mail me. Thanks Jerry5010@aol.com

zoe said...
February 12, 2010 at 3:59 pm

Hi Jerry,

What bread are you baking? If you are baking the Master recipe than the temperature is 450 degrees. Each of the breads is baked at a different temperature.

Zoë

Grace said...
February 13, 2010 at 12:45 pm

You say to use a covered, but not airtight container for the bread dough. Give an example of such a container. Thanks.

zoe said...
February 13, 2010 at 3:51 pm

Hi Grace,

There is an example of our favorite bucket in the current post: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=1616. You can use any bucket that is 5-quarts or even a bowl that is covered with plastic wrap.

Thanks, Zoë

Gerry K said...
February 14, 2010 at 11:23 am

BIG QUESTION – In the book, the baking stone is to be on the middle rack, and the photo on page 29 shows the broiler pan on the LOWEST SHELF. Then you put in the water AFTER the bread goes onto the baking stone. We are using a 40-year old Okeefe and Merritt Electric Oven, and the bread comes out GREAT BUT – We CRACKED a baking stone. Is this because the steam coming up UNDER the baking stone causes a problem? ALSO – if we put the broiler rack ABOVE the baking stone, on the top-most (broiler) rack, then we’ll have STEAM and water droplets splashing against the top BURNER, won’t that break the Heating Element on the top of the oven? Which is safest – broiler pan UNDER the baking stone, or OVER the baking stone.

jeff said...
February 14, 2010 at 8:35 pm

Gerry: Our default location is that the stone and loaf are in the middle of the oven. I usually place the water tray below that (though it doesn’t absolutely have to be, it can be above). I don’t get into trouble with cracking stones. My last one lasted 11 years— the most durable ones are 1/2-inch thick, not 1/4-inch thick.

But if you’re concerned about damaging oven components or about the durability of stones, check out our alternatives to creating steam:

Baking in a Dutch Oven: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=552

Aluminum Roasting Pan for Crust: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=510

Cloche baking: http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=566

Gerry K said...
February 16, 2010 at 9:06 am

Dear Jeff – thanks. This MAY have been the problem – we were using a 25 year old Pizza Stone, which cracked, and we just purchased a 1-2 inch thick rectangular baking stone so we’ll let you know if that cracks. THANKS for the quick response. We just did a happy hour with cut up chunks of home made bread dipped in oil and vinegar and topped with cheeses and veggies. Was a big hit out here in rural Kearny, Arizona. Your bread ideas make it possible for us to have artisan bread every day, and we’re about 100 miles from the nearest upscale bakery. THANKS!

Madeleine said...
March 5, 2010 at 2:30 pm

I am vegan and wonder what I can substitute for the eggs in the recipes of the Healthy Breads book which my husband just bought me. I’ve used silky tofu and applesauce in muffin recipes successfully but not sure if it will work w/ yeast breads. I”m esp thinking of the sweet dough for cinnamon rolls and the chocolate bread, tks!

zoe said...
March 5, 2010 at 8:53 pm

Hi Madeleine,

I know there are vegan egg substitutes, but I have never tried them. I will have to look into it, if I find something I will report back!

Thanks, Zoë

lauren said...
March 13, 2010 at 8:21 pm

Oh so disappointing. I live in Denver. I lowered the yeast and allowed the dough to rest in the refrigerator for 2 days as some had suggested. After shaping my bread and letting rise all day it barely grew. I went ahead and baked it and to get the room in the oven for the water I had to move my rack up – dark brown puck.

jeff said...
March 14, 2010 at 5:53 am

Lauren: We never advocated that. For our high-altitude recommendations, go to http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=144. Try those things, then see what you think, and if still having trouble, come back and ask away… Jeff

lauren said...
March 15, 2010 at 7:15 am

Jeff – thanks for checking on me – I’m lost on what part wasn’t advocated. I lowered the yeast as suggested – let it rise in the refrigerator longer – as suggested. The only thing I did differently was let it rise all day outside the frig — then baked in the oven with the steam pan. What part did I miss?

zoe said...
March 15, 2010 at 10:43 am

Hi Lauren,

Letting the dough rise all day outside the refrigerator will definitely cause the dough to over proof and it will collapse once it hits the oven. If you need to let the dough rise all day it should only be done in the refrigerator where it will rise very slowly.

Let me know if that helps or if I was confused about your question! Thanks, Zoë

Summer said...
March 24, 2010 at 7:59 pm

I’m moving to Bolivia this Summer and was going through my cookbooks deciding which would make the cut (luggage weight limit). I was going to leave yours behind because of the altitude where I’ll be (Sucre is over 9,000 ft), but then I found this wonderful site. I can’t wait to make bread there, I love your book!

zoe said...
March 24, 2010 at 9:23 pm

Wow Summer,

We will be looking forward to hearing about your adventure in baking in Bolivia. Please stay in touch!

Best of luck with the move and happy baking! Zoë

Rebecca said...
March 30, 2010 at 11:03 am

I am at 7500ft. I can make a pretty good loaf of bread following the Master recipe with the following changes: 1T yeast, a bit more water (~1/3 cup more), and rising in the refrigerator for a day (2 is better). I am curious about using the recipe for the Whole Grain Artisan Bread that was in the NYT a few weeks ago (ok, perhaps a month or two ago). If you are adding in the vital wheat gluten, do you still need to reduce the amount of yeast to 1T? Does that make sense?

jeff said...
March 30, 2010 at 12:51 pm

Rebecca: What recipe in NYT are you talking about? Do you have a link?

You can reduce the yeast in any of our recipes, whether or not there’s VWG; see the FAQ on that (click above). Jeff

Barb said...
April 4, 2010 at 12:31 pm

I have reviewed your blog, followed suggestions for adjustments for high altitude, and I am still having troubles with the whole grain breads: less yeast, more vital gluten, even slightly reducing the amount of wheat flour. I do not increase salt and don’t want to do so. We are at 7,000 feet.

The dough rises nicely on the counter. As soon as it is refrigerated, it deflates considerably. When I put it out to rise on the counter before baking, it rises a bit. When I place it in the oven, it plumps only slightly and every time I end up with a loaf of bread that is very dense in the middle and does not seem to cook thoroughly. I have absolutely no crumb whatsoever. The taste is fine, but it is certainly not what I expect.

Any other suggestions?

zoe said...
April 4, 2010 at 8:52 pm

Hi Barb,

Have you tried the refrigerator rise that we discuss for the high altitude baking? The collapsing dough in the bucket is normal for our dough. The other thing is to make sure you are waiting for the loaf to cool thoroughly before cutting into it. Cutting into a warm loaf results in a soggy center. Tasty, but soggy!

Thanks, Zoë

Jeanne said...
May 29, 2010 at 8:56 am

I live at about 7000 feet and just got my copy of the Healthy Bread in 5 minutes. I have allergies to eggs in my family (specifically albumin). What can I use as a substitute for eggs? I have used buttermilk and egg replacer for cakes but have not tried this for breads. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

zoe said...
May 29, 2010 at 2:05 pm

Hi Jeanne,

Although I have not tried it myself, many of our readers talk about substituting egg replacer products and even ground flax for the eggs. They claim to have great results. I would recommend that you try a 1/2 batch to test it out.

Thanks, Zoe

Dee said...
June 5, 2010 at 10:38 pm

New problem using “local flour”.
I have been making the “100% Whole Wheat bread, Plain and Simple” in your “Healthy Bread” book. I was thrilled to fine the “variation” at the end of the recipe to make it “American-style honey wheat bread. I also add ground flax seed.
My goal is to make sandwich bread for my family. I usually double the recipe so there will acutally be some left for sandwiches. We live at ~5400 ft in New Mexico. Initally the bread was raising too much. I used some of the info from this website to help, ie decrease the yeast and keep the water to 100 degrees at the most. I usually use “High Altitude Hungarian stone ground style WW Flour” for the bread. Mainly because that is the least expensive WW Flour available at our grocery store and I have used it for years for any WW flour needs. I was having very good results getting four nice loafs cooked in cast iron loaf pans. I recently was very happy to be able to get some locally grown/milled WW flour (a mill 1-2 hours north in Colorado). Unfortunately it is not working. With the first attempt, it was obvious the dough was too dry. I wasn’t sure how to add water to it at that point, so I went ahead and baked it. It didn’t raise much during both rises or during cooking. I just tried it again, this time not doubling it to make sure I measured every thing correctly, and it did the same thing. I did add a little more water and mixed it in, but just looks too dry and is not raising like it should. I weigh my flour on a digital scale, so I know I’m using the same amount. Any ideas? I love the idea of using local flour, but I can’t figure out why it’s not working. I even opened up a fresh batch of yeast to make sure my yeast wasn’t the problem.
Any reason this would be happening? Any suggestions for adjusting the recipe? I really want to make WW Bread! Thanks! Sorry so long!

jeff said...
June 6, 2010 at 2:19 pm

Dee: Fresh-ground flour frequently gives inconsistent results, because it absorbs water very differently from commercial flours, and “how” differently is impossible to say without lots of experimentation. I was lucky with a fresh-ground product (http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=1165), but that’s rarely the case. You need to experiment with different liquid levels till it looks like our pictures in the book and videos here on the website http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?page_id=63.

Dee said...
June 7, 2010 at 6:07 am

Thanks Jeff. I will continue to play with it when I get the time. I love using your book! Hope I can figure out how to use the local flour with it!

Marcy said...
June 15, 2010 at 11:00 pm

I would like to know if you can use butter instead of oil in the gluten free brioche receipt. My husband feels that the bread is too greasy with the oil and that it does not taste enough like real brioche. Please help. Thank YOu

jeff said...
June 16, 2010 at 4:34 am

Marcy: That should work, give it a try. May want to experiment with mixtures first to see if it doesn’t change the texture too much.

Rick in CO said...
June 22, 2010 at 8:41 pm

Thanks for a great recipe. How long can one keep it and still have it good in the refrigerator? I’ve kept it about a month and it seemed to be very, very wet and seemed to ’split’ when trying to stretch it. I use it as pizza dough mainly. Could I add a few tablespoons of oil next batch to more simulate a pizza dough without problems? Thanks again!

zoe said...
June 23, 2010 at 1:42 am

Hi Rick,

We recommend keeping the dough for about 2 weeks for the best results. If you have any dough left over add it to a fresh batch. In our books we have lots of doughs with olive oils and they are delicious. You’ll be happy to know we are in the process of writing a pizza book as well. In fact I am writing to you from Naples, Italy, where I am eating as much pizza as my system will allow!

Thanks, Zoe

Denise said...
June 26, 2010 at 3:20 pm

I have read that bread has an internal temperature of 190 degrees when fully baked. Would this be true for whole grain breads as well.? Also, I live at 6,500 feet and was wondering if the temperature would be significantly different since water here boils at 198 degrees.

zoe said...
June 27, 2010 at 12:20 am

Hi Denise,

Our loaves, due to the wet dough should bake to about 200-205. I am not sure if this will change at higher altitudes? I will try to find out for you.

Thanks, Zoe

Sharon said...
August 22, 2010 at 1:17 pm

I live near Denver and read the blog about changes for altitude. I also have your Healthy Bread book where it says to ‘decrease the yeast to 2 teaspoons” but doesn’t say what the starting measure was. On the blog it says decrease from 1 1/2 Tablespoons to 1 Tablespoon – is that the number for whole grains or for the artisoan loaves or both?

zoe said...
August 22, 2010 at 2:17 pm

Hi Sharon,

1 1/2 Tablespoons yeast is typical for our recipes, but the amount can be decreased significantly. http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=85

Thanks, Zoë

Nancy said...
August 27, 2010 at 12:28 pm

I can’t thank you both enough for all the wonderful recipes. I used to bake bread the ‘old-fashioned’ way, but this is SO much easier and we have fresh home baked bread all the time now. It’s always a big hit at family dinners! I do have a question~is there a way to adapt your bagel recipe to make egg bagels?
Thanks again!!

zoe said...
August 27, 2010 at 12:39 pm

Hi Nancy,

So glad you are enjoying the breads. I love the idea of egg bagels, haven’t had one in years. We don’t have a recipe that would recreate it exactly, but I bet our Challah recipe would get you pretty close, maybe with less honey.

Thanks and let me know if you try it! Zoë